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Talk:Development
Contents
Photos For Editing Page
I've decided to put up the high res versions of the photos I took and also the editable files of the topos I've done (either Inkscape or Paint.Net) so people can edit them if they want. Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6nrbp5ws5njdj --Tom Dudley 17:04, 30 July 2010 (BST)
Good idea. --Alan rosier 21:52, 30 July 2010 (BST)
- Tom, it would be better if you were to upload the originals to the wiki and then make a page entitled, "Thumbnails Awaiting" - containing (you'd never guess) thumbnails of either 'works in progress' or 'completed topos'. In this way, folks are more likely to see them and more likley to get working. When finished they can be linked from the appropriate crag page. Space problem? We need to up our quota on the server! --Tim Hoddy 00:30, 31 July 2010 (BST)
- Yeah I agree (and to be honest I'd probably fall behind with keeping that mediafire page updated), I'm just thinking of terms of saving space. The shot I took of Giants Cave for example was about 20 photos stitched together (from a 10MP camera), which ended up being a 180MB file. Space isn't an issue for me on my desktop but I don't want to be uploading files of that size if server space is limited. Hows the server paid for by the way? Is it out of your own pockets or more through SWMC? --Tom Dudley 02:33, 31 July 2010 (BST)
Hmmm... 180Mb is a bit big. If an image is, say, over 10MB, then a small thumbnail and link to the mediafire d/load would do the trick. The SWMC pay for the site. We have a quota of 500MB but we are on 744MB at the moment! I would fear an imminent email but the blokes running running the server seem so laid back!
- Just to add the www.mediafire.com link above no onger displays a file. The site might be unreliable in the long term? --Del 10:46, 22 December 2010 (GMT)
- No, we're not... We tend to do it in the following way: Someone gets a good crag shot and copies it to me together with a roughly drawn topo using the same shot. I use this 'proto-topo' together with the original to create a "bells-'n-whistles" topo. But of course you are welcome to create topos yourself if you wish. --Tim Hoddy (talk) 10:42, 1 July 2013 (BST)
Thumbnails page accessible?
I've been thinking of a way of making the thumbnails page accessible but yet unobtrusive. We could have a small link from the bottom of the main page entitled, Development. That would take us to the developers' guide, thumbnails, photos wanted, list of suitable software, etc. Could even make it readable only by signed up users. Any thoughts? Alan, Tom, Chris, Steve, etc? --Tim Hoddy 09:57, 31 July 2010 (BST)
I've just spotted this. I like the idea of getting to a developers' guide easily. There are already various pages I use lots when writing new pages; i.e. page templates or image tags. That said i'd preffer unobtrusive as I hate bloat. --Del 01:37, 22 December 2010 (GMT)
Topo Standards
Sounds like a pretty good idea and I like the page. Yeah biggest issues as I see it is A) Space B) Consistency. I am knocking a few topos out for sports crags. I'm using dashed lines for the route line colour co-ordinating it <6b Purple/pink, 6b-6c+ red, 7a-7b orange/yellow, >7b black/blue. A similar scheme would be applicable for trad but requiring another lower grade colour (green I guess) for the severe grades. Numbers of routes in same colours. It's easy to chnge these around using inkscape if routes get re-numbered or re-graded. However, if we are using different programmes we would be a little restricted. Ideas?
Software to use?
| Topo Standards - Sport | ||
|---|---|---|
| Grade | Line Representation | HTML Colour |
| <= 6a+ | Green | 00b300 |
| 6b-6c+ | Orange | f1651c |
| 7a-7b | Red | f1061c |
| >=7b+ | Dark blue | 063df1 |
| Topo Standards - Trad | ||
|---|---|---|
| Grade | Line Representation | HTML Colour |
| <= to HVS | Green | 00b300 |
| E1 to E3 | Orange | f1651c |
| E4 to E5 | Red | f1061c |
| >=E6 | Dark Blue | 063df1 |
Complete the above as you see fit. --Tim Hoddy 22:14, 31 July 2010 (BST)
We need to develop some formal standards for topos. This will make it easier for editors to create their own topos and update those created by others. I think this bit is going to be hard work! --Tim Hoddy (talk) 12:56, 23 May 2013 (BST)
If you guys can make a final decision on this, I can mirror the format in the winter guide and provide and an area with clear consistency. I'm using Adobe Illustrator to draw my lines and designing the book in Adobe InDesign. The learning curve is steep but the final results are professional. Is it ok to add a winter table here?. --Del (talk) 07:51, 1 July 2013 (BST)
- We still haven't made a formal standard for topos... altho' we seem to be focusing in on one or two ideas. Check some of the photo topos I've sent in the past two weeks or so. I am, however trying to use the above table for the 'lines'. I use The Gimp for photo topos and Scribus for the DTP of downloadable multi-page topos... see for example Topo_Downloads. You're welcome to add a winter table. --Tim Hoddy (talk) 10:39, 1 July 2013 (BST)
We still don't have a formal standard. Maybe I'll get around to writing one one day. We have only a 'rule of thumb'; i.e. "follow what we have done before" --Tim Hoddy (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2017 (BST)
Creating Topos
Creating Your Own Topos
If you are happy working with software such as Photoshop, The Gimp or Inkscape, then you may want to create your own topos. These software programs allow you to build a topo from "layers"; this means that, as new routes are added (or old routes changed), the topo can be easily edited.
Please remember to follow the rough standards that are in use on previous topos.
Helping to Create Topos
If you don't think you are able to work with complex software such as that listed in the previous section, you can still assist in the production of topos for the crags you choose. You can do this my taking high quality, high resolution photographs of each crag (or section of crag), marking them roughly with a simple "Paint" type program and then sending them, together with the originals to [email protected].
Example
You take a photo of a section of crag which you wish to be "topo-ised".
Some Points To Note
- Simple "Paint" software comes with most operating systems, e.g Microsoft Windows, Mac, etc.
- The better the photo, the better the topo will look. Try taking high-resolution photographs.
- A sunny day in winter when there are few leaves on the trees often produces a clearer photo.
- Stray branches, and other anomalous features, can often be removed in the final editing.
- You will get full credit for the photo and added information, i.e. 'lines', etc.
OpenStreetMap and Printing
I've been having a play about with this for the winter guide as I noted that Pesda Press now use it to good effect. The main difficulty i've been having with it is actually getting an image that is custumised to how I want it, especially in Windows. It can be done with some serious timeconsuming coding but we need to find something that is simple to use.
The best i've got to date is via using an app called 'Kosmos' but this now has ceased to be developed further. 'Maperitive' is a successor to 'Kosmos' but is still under development and can only be used via a command line.
I've also found an app called 'Merkaartor' but have not really played about with it yet. Will let you know on progress. --Del 10:11, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
- Steve... Have a look at Maps_test. It's easy to use. If you want a gps data manager, you could use Viking - it does OpenStreetMaps, etc. --Tim Hoddy 12:27, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
I've just been using Windows Viking-0.9.8.0.exe as this was the only compiled version I could get working on my Win7 desktop. In short it seems a powerful tool that I have no idea how to acquire a map with? I tried File>Acquire>From GPS/From Google Maps... As i'm trying to avoid being sued by Google I assume I need to add a new GeoRef map layer somehow? No other options seems to import from OpenStreetMap on the fly. EDIT --Del 16:39, 21 December 2010 (GMT): I've now figured out you can add a map by going to 'Layers>New Map Layer>OSM(cycle). The others don't seem to work tho.
I'd wish i'd have known about the Maps_test page earlier ... it would have saved hours of time searching for which free maps to use! I can see how the 'Extension:Maps' works here, on the wiki, but when looking at printing in the actual guidebook we need to steer right away from Google due to legal reasons - right?
Further playing about with the 'Maperitive' app has proved to be the nearest to the mark I have found. Firstly it is legal to use for commercial use; i.e. printing a guidebook. It allows easy downloads of OSM data from within the app via one click. It also allows Exports to Bitmap (.png) and SVG (for Inkscape or Adobe Illustrator). You can also easily generate Relief Contours, Hillshading and Tinting via a few simple clicks if needed.
Now i'm learning here but I have invested a lot if time searching for the winter guide maps, so would be VERY interested how something else could trump this? I know there is a load of apps out there that do better but take hundreds of man hours to master and get right. Will I be able to get to grips with the Viking app quickly if it is better? I'm not a GIS scientist and I haven't got much time. --Del 16:19, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
- Steve, the 'Maps' extension can work with many different layers, google maps, google-satellite, OpenStreetMap (various renderings), bing, yahoo, etc., etc. On the Wiki, we can can configure our maps to use (and only use) those that have no commercial 'baggage'.
- I'm installing maperitive now and, from look at its website, it seems powerful and a more suited to your needs than viking. --Tim Hoddy 17:12, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
I'm just thinking of the final publication I guess. Let me know how you get on with Maperitive vs Viking? Your in a better position to know. --Del 17:52, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
- Yep, maperitive probably best for producing customised static maps suitable for publication. --Tim Hoddy 18:18, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
Nice one Tim. Worth knowing for sure! --Del 19:13, 21 December 2010 (GMT)
Drawing lines on topos with Adobe Illustrator
I'm pretty handy with most of the Adobe Creative Suite but new to Adobe Illustrator. I'm keen to stick with the Adobe theme and know it can be easier with third party apps to draw lines, i.e. Inkscape for example. How would I get started with drawing topo lines on photos with it? What's the tools/brushes of choice here? Anyone here using it? --Del 01:42, 22 December 2010 (GMT)
I'm using Inkscape which is very good in my opinion.--Alan rosier 07:47, 22 December 2010 (GMT)
Just to add to the mix ... I was browsing the web last night to see what the yanks do. Adobe Illustrator seems to be the tool of choice for decent quality topos, although i'm still at a loss how to get started with it. Anyhow, I also came across a very small app called BetaCreator that, although pretty basic, can be used in minutes to produce a topo on the fly. The program works much like a simplified photo editing program but with tools specifically designed for creating topos for climbing routes. Can be used on both PC and Mac. --Del 10:35, 22 December 2010 (GMT)
Photo DPI when ready for printing
Just to share a few problems i've encounterd after meeting with the pinters for the winter guide. As well as width and height; photos need to be sized at 300 DPI. With this finer resolution any lines you draw on will be less likely to pixellate (there are couple of horrible examples of pixellation in the Gower and SE Wales guide where lines were drawn on 72 or 96 DPI images and you can see the ‘steps’). Whatever images you send to the printer will need to be at this resolution anyway for the printing process ...
I am saving the final images, to send to the printer, as a 300 DPI .TIFF because that’s the resolution that the printing processes work to. You’ll find that working at 300 DPI on screen will mean you see what you are going to get. Computer resolution and print resolution are different. Just as well to know in advance. --Del 10:35, 22 December 2010 (GMT)
