SWMC Wiki - User contributions [en]

Temple Bay Inlets

2016-10-14T09:19:49Z

Matthew Moore: Fixed a description and FA names.

[[image:Temple bay inlets-thumb.jpg|thumb|150px|right|'''Topo'''|link=http://{{servername}}/g_book/dloads/temple_bay_inlets.pdf]]

[[Image:TempleBay-Roy-Thomas.jpg|thumb|500px|Roy Thomas on ''Matt of the Iron Gland'', [[Temple Bay Inlets]]. Photo by [[User:Carl Ryan|Carl Ryan]]]]
Sea Walls and Temple Bay Inlets

=PREAMBLE=

A pleasant area of small inlets east of the sea walls of witches point. Revisited and regeared recently. Sunny outlook and solid rock make this a must.

Approach by walking over witches head land(or if lucky with the tides across the beach) to the fisherman's ledges and scrambling down east before the neighbouring temple bay is reached. An abseil from the "wrasse" belay can often save the walk over the headland on the way back.

=BOLTING POLICY=

Bolting permissible, rebolting with FA permission.

=ROUTES=

===SEA WALLS===

''Immediately below the fishermans ledges on the very tip of witches are a number of walls and overhangs offering short sharp routes. Many of the routes were done decades ago and have remained unreported or unrecorded until now.Some of the old pegs and situ gear have been replaced. A fun place to be in the sun.''

[[Image:Sea Walls (left) topo.jpg|1000px|thumb|centre|Sea Walls (Left) Topo]]

#'''Betty Swallocks''' Bulging arete on left of platform.6m 
#'''It's just bollocks-E2, 6b''' The overhang, gaining and using the black chert hold.6m 
#'''Paternoster-E3, 5c''' The roof,situ threads.10m 
#'''Fisherman's friend-E2, 5b''' The roof and final crack.10m 
#'''Royle Headache-E3, 6b''' Gaining the gaping corner proves problematic,watch your head and a mat would be handy.10m 
#'''Jilters Wall-E2, 5c''' The narrow white wall,PR.10m 
#'''Professor's Crack-VS, 4b''' The crozzly ramp and crack.10m 
#'''Leg Over-E4, 6a''' Crozzly chert pulling.Swing left from the platform (TR) and surmount the final roof(PR)Womble to the top.10m 
#'''Pull Over-E3, 6a''' More of the same.Climb direct from the platform(TR)to the large ledge,womble up.10m 
#'''Hand Over-HVS, 5a''' The faint rounded corner gained awkwardly from the next step up.10m 
#'''Gloss Over-E1, 5b''' The right side of the wall left of the long rectangular beam of rock.10m 
#'''No push over -E1/2, 5c''' Gain the beam of rock on the left (Protection possibilities)then flail hopefully onto the top of the beam or if slender in girth squirm through,both methods are harrowing.10m 
''To the right is an easy escape chimney and a square crinkly block.'' 
#'''Eugene's Over-E1, 5c''' The centre of the block.5m 
#'''Cross Over-?, ?''' The right edge of the block.5m 
''Around the front again are-''
#'''"How Well It Flows"-HVS, 5b''' The short ragged crack,then amble to the top.5m 
#'''Arcana E4,5c''' The face right of the ragged crack.7m. [[Image:Sea wall breakout topo.jpg|700px|thumb|Sea Wall - Breakout Area]][[Image:Fools rush in 2.jpg|700px|thumb|Rich Leyshan - ''Fools Rush In'' 6c+]]
#'''Lysistrata E5,6a''' Make first moves of "Arcana" to finger rail then hard moves into short crack.Straight up on two layaways to good finishing hold.7m. 
#'''Bridges End E3,6b *''' Somehow gain the pockets in the hanging arete of ''Undercut''.Proceed past the large rusting DRILLED peg with long moves to gain jugs.7m. 
#'''Undercut-E1, 5c''' The obvious hanging corner.Eugene's sitting start is much harder.7m 
#'''Up In Smoke-E3 5c''' Gain the first break(painfully)continue directly up the wall via the peg runner(drilled of course).7m. 
#'''Step Aside-E2, 5c''' The obvious rightward sloping crack,hard to start painful to continue.10m 
#'''Cold Shoulder-HVS, 5b''' Gain the ramp from the left(spike runner in horizontal break.Use pocket in short wall(left) to finish.10m 
#'''Breakout-HVS, 5a''' Pull into the hanging groove ,gain the ramp then take crozzly pockets on right.10m 
#'''Fast Flow 1-E1, 5b''' Start just right of the groove,gain and climb the brown flowstone(TR).10m 
#'''Fast Flow 2-E2, 5b''' From the low scoop gain and climb past the drilled thread in the flowstone.10m 
#'''Even Faster Flow E3,5b''' Even more threads,all drilled of course.10m. 
#'''Aristophanes plays with time-E3, 6a *''' At the right end of the undercut section are some black chert lumps directly under an old yellow thread.Ensure the integrity of your spine with large numbers of bouldering mats or some "thoughtful stick clipping".Devise and execute the sequence of slaps and pulls to reach the break and continue directly up the wall.Try Eugene's sitting start for full value.10m 
#'''Turn Back Time-E3, 5b''' Joins the two routes on either side.Step up as for next route then take a short traverse left to join the yellow "tat" of the previous route.10m 
#'''Down The Mists of Time-E2, 5b''' Step up just left of the faint line of Surprise and continue direct past the situ tat.10m 
#'''Suprise,Suprise-E1, 5b''' A faint line of flakes then direct above.10m 
#'''Waiting Game-HVS, 5a''' Glaringly obvious layback flake.10m 

===TEMPLE BAY INLETS===

''Immediately west of the scramble down at the extreme east end of the Sea Walls are a series of inlets culminating in the large bay.This new area has long forgotten rejeuvanated routes,new sports routes bouldering,bath water solos and more.Only the best of low tides however reveal all.''

====First Inlet====

[[Image:Surly breakout.jpg|thumb|700px|First Inlet]]
[[Image:TempleBay-Myles-Jordan-9433c-Web.jpg|thumb|700px|Myles Jordan on ''Surly Temple''. Photo: [[User:Redmist|Carl Ryan]]]]
''A smooth rocky inlet up which the advancing tide rises alarmingly. However the most easily approached and escapable of the inlets.If intending to climb on the eastern end it is perhaps easier to approach by walking past the Castle Walled Gardens,down the steps into the bay then right(west) along the beach.''
#'''Long Awaited Fr 6c **''' A short (1.69m)step right from the obvious layback crack of ''Waiting Game''.Hard start then eases.Top out.15m. 
#'''Fools rush in no longer-Fr 6c+**''' The obvious arete,tricky to start,painful to continue, top out.15m 
#'''Lasting impressions E3 5c''' The hanging corner on the right.18m ''Right of the hanging corner are:'' 
#'''Dross Of 86-Fr 6b*''' Tricky bulging start to juggy finish.18m 
#'''Life And Soul HVS,5a''' Cracks.18m. 
#'''Sixty Eight Plus One Fr 6b''' Tricky move to clip belay 
#'''Blow Me,Another One-Fr. 5+''' The easiest around here,a few metres left of the "trio".Tricky start then easier to seperate belay.18m 
''Next to the scramble down is a wall with flowstone and three quality routes sharing a LO''
#'''Matt Of The Iron Gland-Fr 6a*''' The easiest start of the three,tricky at mid height.18m 
#'''Wreckers Bay-Fr 6a*''' Tricky start delightful above.18m 
#'''Surly Temple-Fr 6a''' Trickiest start,easy above.Originally soloed by stepping across onto the wall now geared and climbed from the floor.18m 

====Second Inlet====
[[Image:Temple second inlet.jpg|right|thumb|500px|'''Second Inlet''']]
''Continue east(R) along the foreshore until below the broad fisherman's ledge there are several crozzly crack lines (climbed already but unrecorded) until just level with the large sea washed block.''

#'''Themis Is Out Of Order -Fr 6a+''' The most left route on the wall just at the entrance to the inlet,not as easy as it looks.6m. 
#'''Alchemy of Error-Fr 6a ''' Gain the big jug,twinkle on up.5.69m. 
#'''Ow!! Fr 7a''' More gnarliness from Eugene.6m 
#'''300 Spartans Fr 6b''' The prominent prow at the left entrance to the inlet.Short but sharp.6m. 
#'''Sliced Up at Thermopylae -Fr 6a''' Groove R of prow,don't slip it's super sharp.6m 
#'''Project''' p 6m. 
#'''Minsir Fr 6c+''' Gnarly 6m. 
#'''Leonidas Last Breakfast-Fr 6a+''' Short wall,long sling for belay over top.6m. 
#'''Ouch Fr 7?''' Project.6m 
#'''Tip Ripper Fr 6c *''' Short fierce boulder problem.6m. 
#'''Achilles Hasn't A Foot To Stand On Fr-6b+''' Opposite the boulder a faint arete with a "tooth "of rock at the start and a larger one near the top,now harder since the demise of "the pebble".6m 
#'''Euclid's Theorem Fr-6a''' Wall to the right sharing LO.6m 
#'''Gift Of The Gods Fr 6b+''' One bolt,no LO.6m 
#'''Gods of Long Ashton Fr 6a''' The left of the twin cracks.Bridgend bolt runners(BBR) i.e share with route on right.6m 
#'''The Dark Force of Glamorgan Fr 6a''' The right hand crack.BBR's(unlike the bristol equivalent these are in situ).6m 
#'''It's all Greek To Me Fr-5+''' Barnacle start with joke blue thread,big sling LO easily retrieved and/or reach to LO on right.6m 
#'''One Less For The Spoiler Fr-4+''' The arete.6m 

===Every persons Wall===
Just outside the narrows of the second inlet is a short wall with a beach start. Either top out and belay on nuts or rusty plate thread(stolen) or lower off the top twizzle and retrieve later
#'''Medusa Spares No Head Fr6a+''' Crux at top.5.69m 
#'''Prometheus Bound Fr 5+''' Crux at top.5.69m 
#'''Oceanus Aches Fr 6a''' Crux at top.5.69m 
#'''Dodecanese Dalliance Fr 5''' Easiest of the bunch.5.69m 

====Cave Inlet====

[[Image:Temple cave wall.jpg|thumb|right|700px|'''Cave Inlet''']]
[[Image:Goi temple2.jpg|thumb|500px|Goi Ashmore on ''Nietzche's Niche'']]

''Continue around the corner east(right) to a small patch of sand and a taller section with a pillar and cave up and right.''
#'''Jericho E3 5c''' A deep water solo.Climb across from the fishermans ledge near the old sign board then up to a rubbly exit.15m 
#'''Debasement of Jericho VS 4b''' Could be a handy no water start to the previous or a solo in it's own right.The shorter of the two chimneys on the left.5m''' 
#'''The Barnacle Bill-Fr6b''' Short steep prow,take barnacled arete direct then exit on left to Fisher persons ledge and long sling belay over top.5.69m 
#'''Canaan Grunts HVS 4c''' The barnacled chimney starting from the sand grind your way up to the ledge.10m 
#'''Hundred Years Of Reflection Fr 6b+**''' (Not marked on topo) Reach the first holds swing up then stiff barnacle rasping gains a contorted rest,heartbraker mantle onto the ledge joined by Zaccheus Repents.13.69m. 
#'''Dolce Et Decorum Est -Fr 6b+**''' Swing in from the right,over the roof to join previous then straight up to new chain belay.14m 
#'''Zacchaeus Repents Fr-6b+*''' The crinkly prow breaking out early from next route.14m 
#'''Chargeable Event Fr-6a*''' The barnacled scoop and corner to shared belay above ledge.14m. 
#'''Lips Off Your Shofarot Fr-6a *''' Just to the right a barnacled wall leads to bridging up the slabby groove(purple thread).15m. ''At a higher level is the other cave which gives a little more time if climbing on an incoming tide.Best approached from the east via the "walled garden" approach if the tide has not cleared witches tip.There are no lower offs at present as it is assumed the sensible will use the routes to exit the area.Good belay on the ledge at the top of the crag,long slings could be arranged for lower offs.Due to theft of the bolt hangers off the platform bring your own+spanner or easier a couple of pulled through wire to hook the bolts.There are sufficient glue ins to construct a belay if this proves too taxing.'' 
#'''Lane Discipline Fr 6a*''' The groove ,can be started from sea level or at higher tides step easily across from the cave ledge.14m. LO. 
#'''Hogging The Mid Lane Fr 6b *''' Start just left of the cave passing a twizzle.Steep jug hauling leads to a long stretch and LO just below the ledge.15m. 
#'''Life In The Slow Lane Fr 6b+ **''' Swing on up the left arete of the cave.Lower off can be arranged first or pull over easily.15m. 
#'''(PROJECT-OPEN)Pull Onto The Hard Shoulder Fr 7?''' The roof,some bolts yet to be placed. 
#'''Quiet Flows The Jordan Fr-5''' The blocky right side of the cave,swing on up to good belay at the top.10m 
#'''Sultan's Spring Fr-5+''' A tricky bounce to start then jugs to the top.10m 
#'''Blowing The Ram's Horn VS 4c''' The faint book corner to the right.9m ''Back down at sea level there is more'' 
#'''Climb A Sycamore Tree HVS 5a''' Easy scrambling leds to the hanging arete then step up the ledges to usual belay.12m 
#'''Tumbledown HS 4b''' As before then follow the ramp rightwards.12m ''Right again and at a higher level above the sand is another long cave; in the cave are:-'' 
#'''Consequentialist Perfectionism HVS 5a''' Short and sharp, drilled but not filled, pull over the roof then proceed up stepped ledges to the terrace belay.9m. 
#'''Nietzche's Niche Fr.5+ **''' Jug hauling over the "fangs",2 bolt wonder,Lower Off at first wide ledge.9m. 
#'''Reverted Revisionist Fr 6a+ ***''' More excellent jug hauling on the wall left of the big roof.9m. 
#'''Cartesian Dualism Fr 5 **''' Just left of the ''prow'' of the wall.Move right over the bulge to the shared belay.9m. 
#'''Descarte's Dithers Fr 5+ **''' The steep ''prow'' shared belay.9m. 
#'''Archimedes Screws Fr 6a+ **''' It's a topsy turvy world(on big jugs) until you reach the seperate belay.9m. 
#'''The Burning Glass Fr 6b **''' More upside down antics.Not drawn on topo.9m. 
#'''Siege Of Syracuse Fr 6b ***''' More of the same.The route of the crag(so far).10m. 

====The Long Wall====

[[Image:Temple long wall.jpg|thumb|right|700px|'''The Long Wall''']]
[[Image:For a sea of tears.jpg|700px|right|thumb|Eugene Jones - ''Heading For a Sea of Tears'' - Fr. 5+]]
''Right again the roof of the cave becomes slatted then there is an arete followed by a long wall.It is easy to scramble up to the fence and escape to the main footpath.This is the last area to remain climable on the incoming tide and it is easy to escape the long ledge above the wall by walking east to the fence.''
#'''Socrates Sucks Fr 5+''' The left side of the arete pulling over the roof to start and keeping off the large ledges on the left.8m. 
#'''Kant Hooks Fr 4+**''' The arete to a shared belay passing the block thread,delightful.8m. 
#'''Rude Buoys HS 4b''' Climb straight up the middle of wall avoiding the mod on the right. 8m. 
#'''Sartre Flies -Moderate''' More of a staircase than a route,a handy way to access the ledge.8m. 
#'''Sartre's Underlay VS 4c''' Solo or trad to gain the last step of previous.5m. 
#'''The Carpet BaggerFr.4+''' Two bolts,rock 6 by bootlace thread,easiest line on the wall(so far).8m. 
#'''Fermat's Last Theorem Fr 5''' Row of glue ins above "the only jug on the wall",belay on ledge.8m. 
#'''Oreste's Suffering Fr 6a''' Sharp mean starting moves,belay back on ledge.Long slings needed to set up bottom rope.8m. 
#'''Electra's Revenge Fr 5+''' Purple threads high up same belay as previous.8m. 
#'''Probing Proctologist Fr.6a''' Squeezed in just before the rectangular recess on the right of the wall,avoid this by climbing left of the lower bolts,painful entry for sensitive fingers. 
#'''Heading For A Sea Of Tears Fr.5+''' A right to left girdle of the long wall finishing at ''Sartre's Flies'',clipping the 3rd bolts),best done when the tide is in,a fitting finale.25.69m. 

====Playtime Wall====
[[Image:Playtime-topo.jpg|thumb|right|700px|Playtime Wall]]
The very short tapering wall just right of the scramble up to the fence, suitable for bouldering or beginners. Belays possible with long slings, friends (1.5 - 2) and a few fixed pieces. 
#'''Jim'll Fix It- Vs 5a''' Friend 3.3.69m 
#'''Now Then Now Then- Vs 4c''' Rock 7.3.69m 
#'''Method Of Exhaustion - Hard Severe 4b''' Short. 3.69m. 
#'''Reductio Ad Absurdum- V.Diff''' Nice. 3.69m 
#'''Ad Infinitum-Severe''' Thread at top. 

==FIRST ASCENTS==

===SEA WALLS LEFT===

#E.Jones 1996
#M.Crocker
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#D.Meek S.Robinson 1986
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1988
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#Prof John Harwood 1975
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#Prof J.Harwood 1975
#G.Royle 1987
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987

====Short Sidewall====
#E.Jones
#EJones

====Breakout Wall====
(seawalls right)

#R.Thomas M.Learoyd 1986
#M.Crocker
#M.Crocker
#R.Thomas G.Royle(rucsac step)1987.Swinging in L from Undercut at the rusty DRILLED peg Martin Crocker 2000+
#S.Robinson M.Learoyd 1986
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#J.Harwood 1975
#J.Harwood 1975
#R.T
#R.T
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987(sitting start-Eugene Travers Jones 1990's)
#M.C
#R.T 1987
#M.L R.T 1986
#R.T M.L 1986

===TEMPLE BAY INLETS===

====First Inlet====
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1988
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1986
#M.Learoyd R.Thomas S.Robinson D.Meek
#R.Thomas R.Phillips 2010
#R.Thomas E.Jones 2011
#D.Meek S.Robinson 1986
#R.Thomas R.Phillips 2011
#R.Thomas R.Phillips 2010
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 2010
#R.Thomas 1986

====Second Inlet====
#R.Thomas Eugene Jones 23/11/2014
#R.Thomas R.Phillips 25/03/2015
#Eugene Jones R.Thomas 23/11/2014
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 16/05/2013
#R.Thomas E.Jones 22.09.2014
#project
#Eugene T.Jones G.AShmore 00/10/2014
#R.Thomas E.Jones 00.09.2014
#project
#R.Thomas Two Richies 2013
#R.Thomas E.Jones 2011
#R.Thomas 2011
#G.Ashmore 2012
#R.Thomas 2012
#R.Thomas 2012
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas

====Cave Inlet====
#Martin Crocker
#R.Thomas 1986
#R.Thomas 1986
#R.Thomas N.O'Neill 04.07.2014
#R.Thomas R.Leyshan R.Phillips 2011
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas Eugene Travers-Jones 08/03/2014
#R.Thomas R.Phillips R.Leyshon 26.04.2014
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 2012
#Project
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas

====The Long Wall====
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#Joe Gallacher, Matt Moore, 23rd June/2015
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#R.Thomas
#N.O'Neill R.Thomas 2012

====Playtime Wall====

#R Thomas G. Royle 1986
#R.Thomas G.Royle 1987
#R Thomas G.Royle 1987
#R.Thomas
#R Thomas 1993
#R Thomas G.Royle
#R Thomas (solo) 1986

User:Matthew Moore

2016-06-11T11:38:05Z

Matthew Moore:

Matthew Moore

Feel free to email me.

Talk:Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd

2016-06-11T11:37:49Z

Matthew Moore:

== Peregrine Falcon ==

I've been up at the quarry weekly for a while now and there's nothing on the Raven's nest at the moment. I reckon someone has gotten the resident Kestrels mixed up with a Peregrine, seen the Ravens nest and come to the wrong conclusion. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 12:37, 11 June 2016 (BST)

Crag Maintenance

2013-07-26T09:48:36Z

Matthew Moore: Comments re Al's comments

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Shipwreck_Cove]]'''

'''Description:''' Query about bolting

'''Comments:'''

This place is causing a bit of a fuss, ukc claims of touting for bolts etc..

I can, t find anything out about how this crag was proposed or voted for bolting, except 2012 bmc minutes voting against bolting at rhossilli.

Can somebody direct me to the documentation for the vote for bolting, and specifically, where the accepted limits of bolting are.

Thanks.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 10:12, 26 July 2013 (BST)

The only thing I can find is this from the notes in the Gower Bolt Policy meeting:

Rhossilli – New quarried buttress’ of rock.
New sport routes
Meeting taken place with National Trust wardens and Gower access rep, sport routes allowed on certain faces with conditions. See separate doc.
Stuart Llewellyn
For - 19
Against - 0
Abstain – 6
APPROVED

From here - http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=551

But I don't think that's talking about Shipwreck Cove specifically. I think it seems to have mostly been left out of discussions and Simon et al have just carried on with it. Unless there's something that's been agreed at the most recent South Wales Area meeting, but there's no minutes for that up yet.

--[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 10:48, 26 July 2013 (BST)

<hr>
'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
<hr>

'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

<hr>

'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)
<hr>

'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

: Whilst I believe that [[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]] would make a very nice ''Sports Crag'' it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
: Two Reasons:
: 1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
: 2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places '''''in the UK''''' where there are concentrations of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draba_aizoides Yellow Whitlow Grass] and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
:--[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved.
Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''LLangattock
'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

Al - The reason Llangattock is 'back on' is because the farmer has left. So people are talking about clmbing there more etc.

Danny - Al has it spot on there. Llangattock was developed as a trad crag in the 70s and 80s. So you're not missing much. There's plenty of unclimbed rock (it's quite a long cliff) that you can bolt up. I'd imagine that the local outdoors centers who currently use the crag would love having some routes which they can safely top rope. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:36, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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__NOTITLE__
__NOTOC__

Crag Maintenance

2013-07-26T09:43:03Z

Matthew Moore: Link really fixed now!

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Shipwreck_Cove]]'''

'''Description:''' Query about bolting

'''Comments:'''

This place is causing a bit of a fuss, ukc claims of touting for bolts etc..

I can, t find anything out about how this crag was proposed or voted for bolting, except 2012 bmc minutes voting against bolting at rhossilli.

Can somebody direct me to the documentation for the vote for bolting, and specifically, where the accepted limits of bolting are.

Thanks.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 10:12, 26 July 2013 (BST)

<hr>
'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
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'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

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'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)
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'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

: Whilst I believe that [[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]] would make a very nice ''Sports Crag'' it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
: Two Reasons:
: 1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
: 2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places '''''in the UK''''' where there are concentrations of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draba_aizoides Yellow Whitlow Grass] and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
:--[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved.
Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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'''Crag:'''LLangattock
'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

Al - The reason Llangattock is 'back on' is because the farmer has left. So people are talking about clmbing there more etc.

Danny - Al has it spot on there. Llangattock was developed as a trad crag in the 70s and 80s. So you're not missing much. There's plenty of unclimbed rock (it's quite a long cliff) that you can bolt up. I'd imagine that the local outdoors centers who currently use the crag would love having some routes which they can safely top rope. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:36, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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Crag Maintenance

2013-07-26T09:41:34Z

Matthew Moore: Fixed link for Shipwreck Cove

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Shipwreck_Cove]]'''

'''Description:''' Query about bolting

'''Comments:'''

This place is causing a bit of a fuss, ukc claims of touting for bolts etc..

I can, t find anything out about how this crag was proposed or voted for bolting, except 2012 bmc minutes voting against bolting at rhossilli.

Can somebody direct me to the documentation for the vote for bolting, and specifically, where the accepted limits of bolting are.

Thanks.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 10:12, 26 July 2013 (BST)

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
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'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

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'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

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'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

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'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

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No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)
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'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

: Whilst I believe that [[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]] would make a very nice ''Sports Crag'' it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
: Two Reasons:
: 1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
: 2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places '''''in the UK''''' where there are concentrations of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draba_aizoides Yellow Whitlow Grass] and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
:--[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved.
Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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'''Crag:'''LLangattock
'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

Al - The reason Llangattock is 'back on' is because the farmer has left. So people are talking about clmbing there more etc.

Danny - Al has it spot on there. Llangattock was developed as a trad crag in the 70s and 80s. So you're not missing much. There's plenty of unclimbed rock (it's quite a long cliff) that you can bolt up. I'd imagine that the local outdoors centers who currently use the crag would love having some routes which they can safely top rope. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:36, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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Crag Maintenance

2013-07-26T09:41:03Z

Matthew Moore: Moved Al's comments into the main section and formatted them correctly.

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Shipwreck_cove]]'''

'''Description:''' Query about bolting

'''Comments:'''

This place is causing a bit of a fuss, ukc claims of touting for bolts etc..

I can, t find anything out about how this crag was proposed or voted for bolting, except 2012 bmc minutes voting against bolting at rhossilli.

Can somebody direct me to the documentation for the vote for bolting, and specifically, where the accepted limits of bolting are.

Thanks.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 10:12, 26 July 2013 (BST)

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

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'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
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'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

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'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

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'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

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'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

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'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

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No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)
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'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

: Whilst I believe that [[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]] would make a very nice ''Sports Crag'' it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
: Two Reasons:
: 1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
: 2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places '''''in the UK''''' where there are concentrations of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draba_aizoides Yellow Whitlow Grass] and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
:--[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved.
Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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'''Crag:'''LLangattock
'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

Al - The reason Llangattock is 'back on' is because the farmer has left. So people are talking about clmbing there more etc.

Danny - Al has it spot on there. Llangattock was developed as a trad crag in the 70s and 80s. So you're not missing much. There's plenty of unclimbed rock (it's quite a long cliff) that you can bolt up. I'd imagine that the local outdoors centers who currently use the crag would love having some routes which they can safely top rope. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:36, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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Talk:Crag Maintenance

2013-07-17T20:42:40Z

Matthew Moore: /* Page Maintenance & Tidying Up */

==BOLTING PROPOSALS FOR NEXT AREA MEETING SPRING 2013==
:Selected climbs at Abbey Buttress relying on fixed gear(old pegs)To whit Sign of the Times,PR Job,Urban Developement, others may be suggested after discussion.Will someone consult the first (free) ascentionist Martin Crocker for his views.

:There is also a proposed crag clean up day(hacking a path to crag through the gorse)which could be tied up with any regearing. Matt Woodfield is the main man but if anyone has suitable tools to lend out or bring along let me know(petrol mega strimmers to chomp chunky gorse,bad boy secateurs etc)
We don't want to be spending all day hacking away with billhooks.Clearing a path to this crag would be a major service to local climbers.it's got some classic routes but getting to them is a major pain.Any one interested drop me a line[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 22:50, 1 February 2013 (GMT)line

: Roy, Alan and Chris... I suggest re-naming this page ready for the next BMC meeting as "Crag Maintenance" as that will, of course, include both bolting '''and''' clean-ups. And of course "Crag Maintenance" is a politically neutral term. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:09, 2 February 2013 (GMT)

Sounds reasonable to me.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 20:58, 2 February 2013 (GMT)

As it's 2013 can we change the sub heading of Crag Maintenance Page to Matters for discussion bla bla next area meeting 2013
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:20, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

: Ok... I've done that. I think we need to re-organise that page a little because some things are resolved and don't need discussion at the next meeting. If I get time, I can upgrade to the latest mediawiki version and I can then look around for a suitable forum type extension. That may work better for us. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 08:42, 10 March 2013 (GMT)
:Good idea so you would split it and have feedback/actions taken/things resolved in say 2012 section then things to be presented to Next Meeting 2013 in another section.
:It would be good if people could see what actions had resulted from discussions at a "one stop shop" instead of having to trawl around various websites for minutes of meetings etc--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:31, 10 March 2013 (GMT)

:: Yes, I agree with you. I'll try and find time to do it... I'll need a good 8 hours for installing and testing. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 12:06, 10 March 2013 (GMT)

==Page Maintenance & Tidying Up==

Just wondering if we need to tidy up the page a bit? There's a bit of duplication, eg a couple of sections for Llangattock, some stuff that's either been discussed and sorted etc. I'm happy to do it, just don't want to go ahead and cause confusion.--[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:18, 14 July 2013 (BST)

: No thanks, please leave it for the moment. We have other plans for this page. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 23:26, 14 July 2013 (BST)

: Like? You've got me interested now. :D --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 21:42, 17 July 2013 (BST)

User:Matthew Moore

2013-07-14T18:40:09Z

Matthew Moore:

Matthew Moore

Feel free to email me.

SWMC Communications Officer (rather grandiose title, when I'm basically Newsletter Editor and Website guy.)

Crag Maintenance

2013-07-14T18:36:08Z

Matthew Moore: Added some notes onto Llangattock

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
<hr>

'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

<hr>

'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)
<hr>

'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

: Whilst I believe that [[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]] would make a very nice ''Sports Crag'' it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
: Two Reasons:
: 1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
: 2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places '''''in the UK''''' where there are concentrations of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draba_aizoides Yellow Whitlow Grass] and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
:--[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved.
Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''LLangattock
'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

Al - The reason Llangattock is 'back on' is because the farmer has left. So people are talking about clmbing there more etc.

Danny - Al has it spot on there. Llangattock was developed as a trad crag in the 70s and 80s. So you're not missing much. There's plenty of unclimbed rock (it's quite a long cliff) that you can bolt up. I'd imagine that the local outdoors centers who currently use the crag would love having some routes which they can safely top rope. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:36, 14 July 2013 (BST)

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Crag Maintenance

2013-07-14T18:29:59Z

Matthew Moore: My comments on Graves end

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
<hr>

'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

<hr>

'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

No need to retro bolt the existing trad routes .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)
<hr>

'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

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'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll

: Whilst I believe that [[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]] would make a very nice ''Sports Crag'' it is probably the wrong crag to think about equipping.
: Two Reasons:
: 1. I think there are still plenty of climbers around who would be quite vocal in their opposition to equipping it.
: 2. I believe that Graves End is one of the few places '''''in the UK''''' where there are concentrations of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draba_aizoides Yellow Whitlow Grass] and I suspect that the NT (or whomever owns it) would be unwilling to tolerate an increase in traffic.
:--[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 17:24, 30 May 2013 (BST)

John I don't agree. Having grown up climbing around Pennard and continuing to do so with several visits to Gower a year I have really noticed the steady growth of retro-bolting. I have seen/enjoyed the benefits of the hard work put into equipping some places like watch house and fox hole. But it is beginning to spread to established trad areas. I would consider the retro bolting of places such as high pennard, with classics such as dan dare, samurai, knuckle fluster etc as unacceptable. Although not the proposal, I fear that it would become the logical next step after Graves End. I have climbed the trad at graves end and it is just like all the other rock around pennard. There is some loose rock and some of it is friable. As a point of fact, the only injury I have had recently was whilst clipping bolts at watch hole. A hold exploded between first and second bolt. I hit the floor with my head. Just because a route is bolted does not change the quality of the rock, or necessarily reduce the risk involved.
Dan Dyson

No need to bolt , use the trad protection that the FA has demonstrated exists .--[[User:Joe gallacher|Joe gallacher]] ([[User talk:Joe gallacher|talk]]) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (BST)

I don't think that we really should be going around retro-bolting existing trad routes. As Simon Rawlinson has said, there's plenty of unclimbed rock, so no need to retro-bolt. Also as Tim H has mentioned it's an SSSI and there's a good chance the NT will say no anyway. It's a perfectly decent trad crag so let's just leave it alone. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] ([[User talk:Matthew Moore|talk]]) 19:29, 14 July 2013 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''LLangattock
'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

Danny, the post isn't clear I'm sorry. The crag is an established (extinct) trad venue with some horrendous top outs and shattered rock, which increases yearly without traffic. The proposal was to place bolted lower offs on established climbs to protect precious cliff top vegetation (not, actually to protect our friends from serious injury and death) and to retro old bolted/pegged routes and even create some sporty areas. The local farmer that leases the land for grazing also steals belay stakes and pretends he owns the place - "Gerroff Me Laaaaand!". --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 12:26, 30 May 2013 (BST)

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Talk:Crag Maintenance

2013-07-14T18:18:36Z

Matthew Moore: Suggestion to tidy up the page and combine sections

Blaenllechau

2013-01-05T22:10:11Z

Matthew Moore:

'''GR004969'''

==PREAMBLE==

Clearly visible from Ferndale town, it is best to fix it's location roughly as it cannot be located visually from the road above. Despite it's previous bad reviews further inspection has revealed that once re-geared the earlier routes are very good and the crop of new ones are on excellent rock and sunny for most of the day and evening. This crag probably has the biggest crop of 4+/5's of any sandstone crag,enough to occupy a sunny summer evening.

==ACCESS==
If approaching from the west Jct 34 M4 leads to the A4119, turn off this to Trebanog and drop down to Porth. From the east the A470 leads to Pontypridd then the A4058 to Porth. If approaching from the North gain the A470 from the Heads Of Valleys Merthyr connection.

'''From Porth in the Rhondda''' take the A4233 to Ferndale and follow the signs to Blaenllechau on the other side of the valley. Follow the hairpin road into the village and use the turning circle to negotiate the right very sharp bend into the minor mountain road to Penrhiwceiber/Llanwonno. Follow this road to the end of the highest terrace and park in the limited space by the NSL / 30mph sign painted in very large red letters on a very prominent portion of red tarmac at the end of the village. Walk 4 mins up the road and follow the rough path down and left at the crash barrier. It is also possible to park a small car here or one of the lower terraces if the previous spot is full.

==THE ROUTES==
Routes described from left to right.

''In the left bay of the quarry is a pillar.''
#'''Dirtbag arete - Fr. 6b **''' The sidewall and left arete,gained and followed direct. 18m 
#'''Electrolux - HVS, 4c''' The central groove and wall above. 18m 
#'''Dicky Dyson - Fr. 5+ *''' The right arete of the groove. 18m 
#'''Dust Devil - Fr. 5''' The chimney/groove and right edge of wall above. 18m 
#'''Suction Power - Fr. 4''' The grassy uncleaned staircase leading to the tree. 18m
 
''Further right is another less distinct pillar the easy slab and a short steep wall.''
 
#'''Possessed By The Mind Of A Hoover 9m HS, 4a''' The centre of the indistinct pillar,battling through the heather to top out. 
''Down and right is the obvious slab and an easy way to the top.'' 
#'''Raspberry Ripple - Fr. 4+''' The left edge of slab. 12m 
#''' Ripple slab - Fr. 3''' Obvious by name. 12m 
''Next is the excellent short steep wall.'' 
#'''Fairy Godmother - Fr. 4+''' 12m 
#'''Fairy's Liquid - Fr. 4+''' The wall to a shared belay on ledge. 12m 
''The next three route top out to a substantial common belay.'' 
#'''Fairy Ring - Fr. 6b+''' Take a direct line stepping onto the ledge of the previous route drops the grade. 12m 
#'''Away With The Mixer - Fr. 6b+''' The flake line in the centre. 12m 
#'''Away With The Fairies - Fr. 6c''' The thin crack with a harrowing final move. 12m 
#'''Fair Enough - Fr. 4+''' The layback crack. 12m 
#'''Half Pint - Full Pint - HS 4a''' Climb layback at the start of Fair Enough then go straight up onto the ledge and climb obvious large crack to the top of the cliff. Belay on the fence. 
''15m right is the blocky arete of...'' 
#'''Hands that do dishes - Fr. 4+''' 13m 
''10m right again is another good steep wall.The PLUMBERS WALL'' 
#'''Leaky Ball Cock - Fr. 5''' The left arete,continue with a traverse to the next route's belay gives ''The Plumbers Union Fr 5'' 12m 
#'''Cock and Ball Story - Fr. 6b+''' Centre of wall. 12m 
#'''Plumbing the depths - Fr. 7a''' Tricky stuff. 12m 

==First Ascents==
#R.Thomas Eugene Jones 00.06.2011
#S.Coles solo 08.02.1992
#R.Thomas R.Phillips 00.06.2011
#R.Thomas Ed Rees Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#G.Ashmore 00.06.2011
#S.Coles solo 08.02.1992
#R.Thomas Ed Rees Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#Ed Rees R Thomas N O'neill 00.06.2011
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 00.05.2011
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 00.05.2011
#R.Thomas Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#P.Lewis A.Sharpe
#A.Sharpe P.Lewis
#R.Thomas Ed Rees Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#J. Gallacher, M. Moore, M. Dicks 05.01.2013
#R.Thomas 00.06.2011
#R.Thomas Ed Rees 00.06.2011
#G.Ashmore R.Thomas 00.06.2011
#G.Ashmore R.Thomas 00.06.2011

User:Matthew Moore

2013-01-05T22:08:00Z

Matthew Moore: Created page with "Matthew Moore"

Matthew Moore

Talk:Blaenllechau

2013-01-05T22:07:19Z

Matthew Moore:

Description checked. It's pretty good, but if you're not familiar with the valleys, starting in Ferndale isn't the greatest. Also the signs as you approach them are NSL (they're 30 when returning from the quarry). Proposed changes are:

From Pontypridd, follow the A4058 and follow signs for A4233/Ferndale and follow the signs to Blaenllechau on the other side of the valley. Follow the hairpin road into the village and take the second very sharp right hand turn with a turning circle (seems like a roundabout, but isn't, use this to take the turn) onto the minor mountain road to Penrhiwceiber/Llanwonno. Follow this road to the end of the highest terrace and park in the limited space by the National Speed Limit/30mph/village signs. Walk approx 200m up the road and follow the rough path down and left at the crash barrier. It is also possible to park a small car here or one of the lower terraces if the previous spot is full.

Route descriptions are fine (follow the bolts left from right, not hard is it?).

However:

"A few metres right is the blocky arete of..."

A few??? Try 15 metres, if you're going to specify distances. eg:

"15 meters to the right is the blocky arete of..."

Next gap after this (to plumbers wall) is 10 meters.

Quite a nice crag all in and the wiki descriptions were generally good. We have a few photos, will put into a communal area somewhere. Matthew Moore and Joe Gallacher - Friday 19th of April, 2012.

Roy, one thing anybody has to accept when writing on a wiki is that they can expect their efforts to be mercilessly edited and re-edited. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:15, 27 June 2012 (BST)

It wasn't meant to be orrible. More of a comment. Would have been ok to leave as was. Have made a few small changes and added a route we did today. --[[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore - SWMC Communications Officer]] 22:07, 5 January 2013 (GMT)

Blaenllechau

2013-01-05T22:05:53Z

Matthew Moore: Added route. Fixed some formatting. Changed distances.

'''GR004969'''

==PREAMBLE==

Clearly visible from Ferndale town, it is best to fix it's location roughly as it cannot be located visually from the road above. Despite it's previous bad reviews further inspection has revealed that once re-geared the earlier routes are very good and the crop of new ones are on excellent rock and sunny for most of the day and evening. This crag probably has the biggest crop of 4+/5's of any sandstone crag,enough to occupy a sunny summer evening.

==ACCESS==
If approaching from the west Jct 34 M4 leads to the A4119, turn off this to Trebanog and drop down to Porth. From the east the A470 leads to Pontypridd then the A4058 to Porth. If approaching from the North gain the A470 from the Heads Of Valleys Merthyr connection.

'''From Porth in the Rhondda''' take the A4233 to Ferndale and follow the signs to Blaenllechau on the other side of the valley. Follow the hairpin road into the village and use the turning circle to negotiate the right very sharp bend into the minor mountain road to Penrhiwceiber/Llanwonno. Follow this road to the end of the highest terrace and park in the limited space by the NSL / 30mph sign painted in very large red letters on a very prominent portion of red tarmac at the end of the village. Walk 4 mins up the road and follow the rough path down and left at the crash barrier. It is also possible to park a small car here or one of the lower terraces if the previous spot is full.

==THE ROUTES==
Routes described from left to right.

''In the left bay of the quarry is a pillar.''
#'''Dirtbag arete - Fr. 6b **''' The sidewall and left arete,gained and followed direct. 18m 
#'''Electrolux - HVS, 4c''' The central groove and wall above. 18m 
#'''Dicky Dyson - Fr. 5+ *''' The right arete of the groove. 18m 
#'''Dust Devil - Fr. 5''' The chimney/groove and right edge of wall above. 18m 
#'''Suction Power - Fr. 4''' The grassy uncleaned staircase leading to the tree. 18m
 
''Further right is another less distinct pillar the easy slab and a short steep wall.''
 
#'''Possessed By The Mind Of A Hoover 9m HS, 4a''' The centre of the indistinct pillar,battling through the heather to top out. 
''Down and right is the obvious slab and an easy way to the top.'' 
#'''Raspberry Ripple - Fr. 4+''' The left edge of slab. 12m 
#''' Ripple slab - Fr. 3''' Obvious by name. 12m 
''Next is the excellent short steep wall.'' 
#'''Fairy Godmother - Fr. 4+''' 12m 
#'''Fairy's Liquid - Fr. 4+''' The wall to a shared belay on ledge. 12m 
''The next three route top out to a substantial common belay.'' 
#'''Fairy Ring - Fr. 6b+''' Take a direct line stepping onto the ledge of the previous route drops the grade. 12m 
#'''Away With The Mixer - Fr. 6b+''' The flake line in the centre. 12m 
#'''Away With The Fairies - Fr. 6c''' The thin crack with a harrowing final move. 12m 
#'''Fair Enough - Fr. 4+''' The layback crack. 12m 
#'''Half Pint - Full Pint - HS 4a''' Climb 'Fair Enough' and then precede onto the ledge and climb obvious large crack to the top of the cliff. Belay on the fence. 
''15m right is the blocky arete of...'' 
#'''Hands that do dishes - Fr. 4+''' 13m 
''10m right again is another good steep wall.The PLUMBERS WALL'' 
#'''Leaky Ball Cock - Fr. 5''' The left arete,continue with a traverse to the next route's belay gives ''The Plumbers Union Fr 5'' 12m 
#'''Cock and Ball Story - Fr. 6b+''' Centre of wall. 12m 
#'''Plumbing the depths - Fr. 7a''' Tricky stuff. 12m 

==First Ascents==
#R.Thomas Eugene Jones 00.06.2011
#S.Coles solo 08.02.1992
#R.Thomas R.Phillips 00.06.2011
#R.Thomas Ed Rees Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#G.Ashmore 00.06.2011
#S.Coles solo 08.02.1992
#R.Thomas Ed Rees Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#Ed Rees R Thomas N O'neill 00.06.2011
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 00.05.2011
#R.Thomas G.Ashmore 00.05.2011
#R.Thomas Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#P.Lewis A.Sharpe
#A.Sharpe P.Lewis
#R.Thomas Ed Rees Nick O'Neill 00.06.2011
#J. Gallacher, M. Moore, M. Dicks 05.01.2013
#R.Thomas 00.06.2011
#R.Thomas Ed Rees 00.06.2011
#G.Ashmore R.Thomas 00.06.2011
#G.Ashmore R.Thomas 00.06.2011

Crag Maintenance

2012-09-03T12:16:46Z

Matthew Moore: Added comments re proposals.

[[Image:Bolting_proposals.png|800px|center|alt="Bolting Proposals|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for Gower crags to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to create an account (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting Sept 2012==

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

__NOTITLE__
__NOTOC__

Talk:Trebanog

2012-05-26T21:39:54Z

Matthew Moore: /* Guidebook checking */

== Guidebook checking ==

From Ian G:

Took the directions from the wiki, they could be improved:

If coming from the M4 take J34 and follow the A4119. At the 7th roundabout take the A4233 toward Porth/Rhondda/Trebanog.

As for the route descriptions, the ones immediately after I Spy Arete could be improved:
I Spy Direct - i think the description is OK. Soft at E1 5b.
High and Dry - I take this as being the crack/small corner system about 1 to 1.5m left of the corner. If this is the line then E1 5a is way out, more like HS 4b.
Eastend Groove - Going through the routes in logical left to right order I make this the corner crack in the bay. If this is the case then the Grade is about right.

Of the other routes that I have done there I would say the following routes (numbers only given) are about right:
12; 13; 14; 17; 18; 20; 21; 26 (bolted); 31; 34; 35; 36; 37; 41; 45; 46; 47; 48; 49; 50; 51; 52

I do also have some photos that may be good enough for topos for the areas of main interest.

----

There was also some discussion about High and Dry, I Spy Direct and Eastend Grooves and that some of the routes are incredibly contrived.

(Matt - Tho you could say that about other parts of the crag!)

== other stuff ==

Again, I'm gonna beef up the thumbs. The blank spot on the right at the top of page should be filled I recon with a good quality shot, the others should be quite large too because of the lack of colour on the pages. -Alan

No probs, i didn't finish adding the crag. I don't intend to keep them small - just do it while i'm adding info. I planned to just add the pics next to/near the routes and I didn't get far enough to those routes :) --[[User:Steven Delaney|Del]] 09:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I see--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 10:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Update courtesy of Goi Ashmore --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 09:37, 12 August 2010 (BST)

Hamer’s Route 11m VS,4c
The shallow corner bounding the left-hand side of the obvious Flat Wall.
P.Hamer, R.Smith 00.00.1984

Flat Wall

Firewater 11m E1,5c Fr6a+ *
The left-hand side of the wall.
A.Sharp, R.Smith 00.00.1984

Hair Of The Dog 11m E4,6a Fr7a **
A very thin direct line, passing just left of the sentry box.
A.Sharp 00.00.1983

Blagdon 11m E3,5c Fr6c *
Climb the line just right of the sentry box to hit a finger rail leading left at three-fifths height. Follow this until it is possible to make a couple of moves up to the top of Hair Of The Dog.
A.Sharp 00.00.1983

Blagdon Direct 11m E4,6a Fr6c+ *
As for Blagdon, but from the finger rail, make a huge rock up to finish direct.
Simon Coles 00.00.1994

Ethanol 11m VS,4c
The cracks to the right.
J.Harwood 26.03.1990

Talk:Trebanog

2012-05-26T21:39:36Z

Matthew Moore: Guidebook checking.

== Guidebook checking ==

From Ian G:

Postby Ian Goudge » Fri May 11, 2012 12:21 pm
Took the directions from the wiki, they could be improved:

If coming from the M4 take J34 and follow the A4119. At the 7th roundabout take the A4233 toward Porth/Rhondda/Trebanog.

As for the route descriptions, the ones immediately after I Spy Arete could be improved:
I Spy Direct - i think the description is OK. Soft at E1 5b.
High and Dry - I take this as being the crack/small corner system about 1 to 1.5m left of the corner. If this is the line then E1 5a is way out, more like HS 4b.
Eastend Groove - Going through the routes in logical left to right order I make this the corner crack in the bay. If this is the case then the Grade is about right.

Of the other routes that I have done there I would say the following routes (numbers only given) are about right:
12; 13; 14; 17; 18; 20; 21; 26 (bolted); 31; 34; 35; 36; 37; 41; 45; 46; 47; 48; 49; 50; 51; 52

I do also have some photos that may be good enough for topos for the areas of main interest.

----

There was also some discussion about High and Dry, I Spy Direct and Eastend Grooves and that some of the routes are incredibly contrived.

(Matt - Tho you could say that about other parts of the crag!)

== other stuff ==

Again, I'm gonna beef up the thumbs. The blank spot on the right at the top of page should be filled I recon with a good quality shot, the others should be quite large too because of the lack of colour on the pages. -Alan

No probs, i didn't finish adding the crag. I don't intend to keep them small - just do it while i'm adding info. I planned to just add the pics next to/near the routes and I didn't get far enough to those routes :) --[[User:Steven Delaney|Del]] 09:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I see--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 10:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Update courtesy of Goi Ashmore --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 09:37, 12 August 2010 (BST)

Hamer’s Route 11m VS,4c
The shallow corner bounding the left-hand side of the obvious Flat Wall.
P.Hamer, R.Smith 00.00.1984

Flat Wall

Firewater 11m E1,5c Fr6a+ *
The left-hand side of the wall.
A.Sharp, R.Smith 00.00.1984

Hair Of The Dog 11m E4,6a Fr7a **
A very thin direct line, passing just left of the sentry box.
A.Sharp 00.00.1983

Blagdon 11m E3,5c Fr6c *
Climb the line just right of the sentry box to hit a finger rail leading left at three-fifths height. Follow this until it is possible to make a couple of moves up to the top of Hair Of The Dog.
A.Sharp 00.00.1983

Blagdon Direct 11m E4,6a Fr6c+ *
As for Blagdon, but from the finger rail, make a huge rock up to finish direct.
Simon Coles 00.00.1994

Ethanol 11m VS,4c
The cracks to the right.
J.Harwood 26.03.1990

Talk:Siocled Seren Pysgod Quarry

2012-05-26T21:33:56Z

Matthew Moore: Guidebook checking.

== 2012 Guidebook checking ==

Directions are fine (very good in fact).

Crag and route descriptions are also fine. Topos on the wiki are useful.

Climbed:

Worzel's Sore Stump - Fr 5 - Might really be 4+, but 5 is probably ok.
Little Miss Dirty Fingers - Fr 4+ - Found it odd, is the tree ok or not? With the tree it's 4+. Without it I found it much harder. Probably cause I'm hopeless at foot jamming.

Suggest that if it goes in the Guidebook, it should be as Six Bells Quarry, as the name seems utterly random. I'm assuming it's supposed to be funny?

Otherwise I'm not that sold on it as a crag. Enjoyed Blaenllechau much more.

Talk:Tirpentwys

2012-05-26T21:28:28Z

Matthew Moore: /* 2012 Guidebook checking */

== 2012 Guidebook checking ==

From Scott Philips:

2.If coming from Crumlin. In Hafodyrynys turn left (by the shops after the Swfryd turning) off the A472, then take the road towards 'Pont Bren' that runs down the side of the Chinese takeaway. After about 70m turn right up the steep hill, round the hairpin bend, and along single lane country roads. Cross over a cattle grid and then the road levels out. Continue straight ahead towards the next junction and turn right on a hair pin bend, crossing a second cattle grid, to pass the houses of Pantygasseg on your left. Follow the road down the steep hill to quickly find a car park on the left signposted as a Local Nature Reserve.

As the Star Inn has stopped trading.

From Ian G:

The directions from Crumlin could do with an update. The Star Inn no longer exists (including the sign), there is a sign for Cefn Crib.

Climbed the following routes, with the given wiki grade first then my opinion in brackets after:
6 6a (6a+)
14 6b (6b+)
16 6b (6b)
17 7a (not sure as top-ropped it with a few rests)
27 6b (6a/a+)
30 6a (6a)

== Test user ==

1. This is a test [user unknown]

A test? What is the Test?
When does It take place?
Who is my Examiner?
These are questions that i'm sure we have all asked ourselves regarding the Test.
But this is the very beauty of that Test - we cannot know the answer to a single one of those questions.
If we could, it would not be the Test.
In a western world whose educational system is increasingly fixated on course work over end of term testing, our young men and women lose the respect necessary to accept the nature of the Test - they want everything to be the same as their years of course work.
Life is not this way. The Test is not this way... --[[User:Steven Delaney|Del]] 20:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

== Route numbering ==

Numbering is broken from Choosey Suzie downwards.

Thanks... hopefully it's fixed now. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 15:05, 4 July 2011 (BST)

Any hope of using the following system throughout the wiki? It looks a lot better and is easier to edit in the long run.

#'''Route name - Fr. 6b''' Route description 

: I think it looks '''slightly''' better but it is very fiddly to do well especially when you have to add text inbetween route descriptions. The wiki markup becomes very difficult to read when we do this. It's also difficult to mix route descriptions and photos for example and too many <nowiki> s</nowiki> could make our task to "soup up" the layout with CSS in the future very difficult. If we were continually updating crags and their routes descriptions then I think that would swing me... but once it's all on the wiki, updates will arrive fairly slowly.

: How about mixing it? It doesn't irritate me much when I see the different formats. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 17:09, 4 July 2011 (BST)

: Also, looking at the Tirpentwys page, doing it the <nowiki> </nowiki> way is going to make it difficult to add proper linkable sub-sections within the route descriptions. The other way means we can be more flexible.

: Another thought: Suppose someone adds a direct finish to a route or more likely squeezes in a route between two others. With the old way of doing things we could, at a pinch, number the route "23A" for example and then have very little editing to do of the crag's topo. I'm assuming here that others are not using "layers" in designing the topos. If you '''are''' using "layers" in your topo designs then this would not be a concern. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 17:25, 4 July 2011 (BST)

''our task to "soup up" the layout with CSS in the future very difficult.'' This statement worries me some.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:16, 4 July 2011 (BST)

: No need to worry. The current CSS gives us little control over the positioning of images and doesn't allow us fine control of page layout. Should we ever wish to develop the style and layout further, (and of course we'd all have to agree on this!), then adding html tags (esp. <nowiki> </nowiki>) will make it very awkward.

: Anyway, to be honest I like the simple layout... but I also like keeping our options open. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 23:32, 4 July 2011 (BST)

=Access Issues=

I have just got the following message off a caving friend of mine:

"Is this you?

Can anyone put me in toutch with the person or persons who have bolted and put hangers into a small quarry face in Trewpentis nature reserve near Pontypool?

Whoever did it has done the most excellent job.

Unfortunatally they also freaked the landowner out and all climbing is prohibited. I have spoken to the landowner and I think it is not impossible to get permissive access.

I don't want to be seen as stealing someone elses toys, so if I can be put in toutch with the climbers resposible I'm sure we can work something out that will make everyone happy."

Source: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12219.msg158072%3Btopicseen#new

I thought this was very interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_Borough_Council --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 08:03, 21 July 2011 (BST)

Talk:Tirpentwys

2012-05-26T21:27:25Z

Matthew Moore:

== 2012 Guidebook checking ==

From Scott Philips:

2.If coming from Crumlin. In Hafodyrynys turn left (by the shops after the Swfryd turning) off the A472, then take the road towards 'Pont Bren' that runs down the side of the Chinese takeaway. After about 70m turn right up the steep hill, round the hairpin bend, and along single lane country roads. Cross over a cattle grid and then the road levels out. Continue straight ahead towards the next junction and turn right on a hair pin bend, crossing a second cattle grid, to pass the houses of Pantygasseg on your left. Follow the road down the steep hill to quickly find a car park on the left signposted as a Local Nature Reserve.

As the Star Inn has stopped trading.

== Test user ==

1. This is a test [user unknown]

A test? What is the Test?
When does It take place?
Who is my Examiner?
These are questions that i'm sure we have all asked ourselves regarding the Test.
But this is the very beauty of that Test - we cannot know the answer to a single one of those questions.
If we could, it would not be the Test.
In a western world whose educational system is increasingly fixated on course work over end of term testing, our young men and women lose the respect necessary to accept the nature of the Test - they want everything to be the same as their years of course work.
Life is not this way. The Test is not this way... --[[User:Steven Delaney|Del]] 20:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

== Route numbering ==

Numbering is broken from Choosey Suzie downwards.

Thanks... hopefully it's fixed now. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 15:05, 4 July 2011 (BST)

Any hope of using the following system throughout the wiki? It looks a lot better and is easier to edit in the long run.

#'''Route name - Fr. 6b''' Route description 

: I think it looks '''slightly''' better but it is very fiddly to do well especially when you have to add text inbetween route descriptions. The wiki markup becomes very difficult to read when we do this. It's also difficult to mix route descriptions and photos for example and too many <nowiki> s</nowiki> could make our task to "soup up" the layout with CSS in the future very difficult. If we were continually updating crags and their routes descriptions then I think that would swing me... but once it's all on the wiki, updates will arrive fairly slowly.

: How about mixing it? It doesn't irritate me much when I see the different formats. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 17:09, 4 July 2011 (BST)

: Also, looking at the Tirpentwys page, doing it the <nowiki> </nowiki> way is going to make it difficult to add proper linkable sub-sections within the route descriptions. The other way means we can be more flexible.

: Another thought: Suppose someone adds a direct finish to a route or more likely squeezes in a route between two others. With the old way of doing things we could, at a pinch, number the route "23A" for example and then have very little editing to do of the crag's topo. I'm assuming here that others are not using "layers" in designing the topos. If you '''are''' using "layers" in your topo designs then this would not be a concern. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 17:25, 4 July 2011 (BST)

''our task to "soup up" the layout with CSS in the future very difficult.'' This statement worries me some.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:16, 4 July 2011 (BST)

: No need to worry. The current CSS gives us little control over the positioning of images and doesn't allow us fine control of page layout. Should we ever wish to develop the style and layout further, (and of course we'd all have to agree on this!), then adding html tags (esp. <nowiki> </nowiki>) will make it very awkward.

: Anyway, to be honest I like the simple layout... but I also like keeping our options open. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 23:32, 4 July 2011 (BST)

=Access Issues=

I have just got the following message off a caving friend of mine:

"Is this you?

Can anyone put me in toutch with the person or persons who have bolted and put hangers into a small quarry face in Trewpentis nature reserve near Pontypool?

Whoever did it has done the most excellent job.

Unfortunatally they also freaked the landowner out and all climbing is prohibited. I have spoken to the landowner and I think it is not impossible to get permissive access.

I don't want to be seen as stealing someone elses toys, so if I can be put in toutch with the climbers resposible I'm sure we can work something out that will make everyone happy."

Source: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12219.msg158072%3Btopicseen#new

I thought this was very interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_Borough_Council --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 08:03, 21 July 2011 (BST)

Talk:Blaenllechau

2012-04-20T21:48:28Z

Matthew Moore: Crag checked, couple of small amendments suggested.

Description checked. It's pretty good, but if you're not familiar with the valleys, starting in Ferndale isn't the greatest. Also the signs as you approach them are NSL (they're 30 when returning from the quarry). Proposed changes are:

From Pontypridd, follow the A4058 and follow signs for A4233/Ferndale and follow the signs to Blaenllechau on the other side of the valley. Follow the hairpin road into the village and take the second very sharp right hand turn with a turning circle (seems like a roundabout, but isn't, use this to take the turn) onto the minor mountain road to Penrhiwceiber/Llanwonno. Follow this road to the end of the highest terrace and park in the limited space by the National Speed Limit/30mph/village signs. Walk approx 200m up the road and follow the rough path down and left at the crash barrier. It is also possible to park a small car here or one of the lower terraces if the previous spot is full.

Route descriptions are fine (follow the bolts left from right, not hard is it?).

However:

"A few metres right is the blocky arete of..."

A few??? Try 15 metres, if you're going to specify distances. eg:

"15 meters to the right is the blocky arete of..."

Next gap after this (to plumbers wall) is 10 meters.

Quite a nice crag all in and the wiki descriptions were generally good. We have a few photos, will put into a communal area somewhere.

Matthew Moore and Joe Gallacher - Friday 19th of April, 2012.

Main Page

2012-04-17T19:24:09Z

Matthew Moore: Added link to Coed-Ely access issues

<google1 style="3"></google1>[[Image:Swmc gb2.png|900px|center|alt=South Wales Mountaineering Club - Guidebook Wiki|link=]]

{{#tree:id=maintree|
*'''[[Contents New|Contents]]''' 
*'''[[General]]''' - How to submit information and the obligatory disclaimer 
*'''[[Super Index]]''' - A list of pages in the Wiki. 
*'''[[Best For..]]''' - A locals guide of where to go and when}}

{| class="wikitable" style="width:1050px; float:centre; height:200px" border="1"
|-
! South Wales Latest News
|-
|
*'''April 2012 - [[Coed_Ely]]''' - Access issues at the crag
*'''April 2012 - [[New Crag 2]]''' - New sport climbing venue near Caerphilly with short walk-in. - (Fr.4 to fr.6b+).
*'''April 2012 - [[Paviland Far Far West]]''' - Sported up for your delight. - (9 routes from Fr.6a+ to fr.6c).
*'''April 2012 - [[Oakdale]]''' - New Sandstone Quarry. - (19 New Routes grade Fr.5 to Fr.6b+).
*'''October 2011''' - N.T. need to be consulted before any further bolting takes place on Gower. See http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4519.
*'''September 2011''' - '''[[Tirpentwys]]''' vandalised. 50 hangers stolen and bolt stubs hammered.
*'''September 2011''' - '''[[Bargoed|Bargoed Quarry]]''' re-juvination complete.
*'''August 2011 - [[Siocled Seren Pysgod Quarry]]''' - ''New sandstone quarry. - (16 New Routes grade Fr.4 to 6a+) ''
*'''03 August 2011''' - Complete access '''BAN''' at '''[[Edwardsville (X1)| Edwardsville]]''' - See - [http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4390 BMC Access Database]
*'''April 2011''' - Ravens nesting at '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]''', see page for details of restrictions.
*'''03 April 2011''' - Re-gearing and crag clean up at '''[[Oxwich#Oxwich_Bay_Quarry_South|Oxwich South Quarry]]''' completed thanks to Stu Llewellyn (local bmc rep), Nik Goile and Steve and S.W.B.F. This summer get there and get clipping, you know it makes sense!
*'''22 December 2010''' - '''[http://www.southwalesmountaineering.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?p=13573#13573 Craig-y-Llyn found to be notified as a SSSI !].'''
*'''September 2010 - [[Ridgeway]] Quarry ''' - ''New Sandstone Quarry. - (9. New Routes grade Fr.6a to 6c+.) ''
*'''July 2010 - [[BMC Representatives Meet Dinas Rock Landowners]]'''
*'''April 2010 - Recent de-bolting of routes at [[Taffs Well]]''' - ''Calcite Walls''
*'''March 2010 - [[Crymlyn Quarries]] ''' - ''3. New Sandstone Quarries. - (50+ New Routes grade Fr.5 to 7a+.) ''
|}
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Hayabusa.jpg|
The Gap2.jpg|
Diamond Dog 5.jpg|
Skanderbeg.jpg|
Waun lefrith.jpg|
Nik Goile on Flash Harry.JPG|
Zulu Wall.jpg|
Clart 01.jpg|
Lyddite.jpg|
Spring Tide.jpg|
Mateusz web.jpg|
BEG.jpg|
Shackles of love.jpg|
Jezza.jpg|
Rose and Rat.jpg|
Ogmore11.jpg|
Chis beynon odins.jpg|
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King ada 1.jpg|
Trial Wall.jpg|
Iron Claws.jpg|
Crystal Eye.jpg|
Fisting the Night Away.jpg|
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Skin ed.jpg|
Berlin1.jpg|
Roseline.jpg|
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== Rock Climbing in South Wales ==

Historically overshadowed by it's neighbour, Pembroke, some of the best routes in the UK are located within S.E. Wales and Gower. It's worth a visit or ten! The climbing ranges from 'exciting' to super safe bolt ladders on limestone or sandstone. There is something for everyone. The climbing can be split into 4 sections; [[Gower|Gower Peninsula]], [[South East Wales Sandstone|S.E Wales Sandstone]], [[Inland Limestone]], [[Bridgend Area]]:

'''[[Gower|Gower]]''' is set in one of the most beautiful coastal areas of Wales and contains many fine trad routes from VDiffs to the upper Extremes. If trad isn't your thing then there are even cliffs dedicated to sport climbing! The crags are mostly in relaxed and scenic positions which are positively covered in three star routes.

'''[[South East Wales Sandstone|S.E. Wales Sandstone]]''' climbing is on the hard indurated sandstone of the [[wikipedia:South_Wales_coalfield|South Wales Coalfield]]. Generally this means either bolted routes in quarries, or pleasant natural (read as non-bolted) outcrops. The quarries range from small bites in the hillside to huge monolithic wastelands. Crags are often remnants of the industrial heritage belonging to the South Wales valleys ... but there is something actually pleasant about all this - think [http://slate.wetpaint.com/page/Never+Never+Land?t=anon Dinorwig] with trees!

'''[[Inland Limestone]]''' can contrast in character quite radically. For example, inland sport climbing on steep and solid natural limestone may be found at [[Dinas Rock]], whilst vertical to slabby quarried rock is in plentiful supply around [[Taffs Well]], just off the M4 north of Cardiff.

'''[[Bridgend Area]]''' is for those with salt water in their veins. Coastal bolt clipping can be found at [[Witches Point]], or at the other end of the adventure spectrum there is nationally important [[Ogmore]], which like Marmite ... you will either love or hate.

== Bouldering in South Wales ==
South Wales [[bouldering]] is yet to be developed to the level of North Wales, or the peak, yet it offers a fine spectrum of climbing for experienced and novice boulderers alike. [[Kennelgarth Wall]] at Dinas offers some great safe problems rewarding strength and subtle technique. [[The Trench]] at Ogmore is unique - grit shapes without friction. [[Bouldering in Gower]] gives the climber a 'mine' of easier problems - and some hard ones - with the additional attractions of swimming and jumping at high tide.

The guide is far from complete but is complemented by [http://www.swbg.co.uk www.swbg.co.uk]. One of the problems is that we keep discovering nice new areas to boulder at!

== How You Can Get Involved ==
Anyone interested in rock-climbing and bouldering is welcome to get involved in the development of this wiki.

We are interested in recruiting editors to update pages and to supply news and photographs. The only requirements are that you have something of interest that you are willing to share and that you can work together with other editors to produce an up-to-date and useful resource for climbers both in S. Wales and further afield.

If you are interested, create yourself an account by clicking on the link at the top right of this page. '''N.B.''' New users should note that:
*'''both''' your ''username'' '''and''' ''password'' are case-sensitive.
*your username should take the form of your real ''Full Name''. e.g. '''Fred Bloggs''', etc..

For furthur info, contact '''[mailto:craginfo@skyhook.ath.cx SMWC Craginfo]'''

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Talk:Bargoed

2012-04-17T10:04:41Z

Matthew Moore: Added Ian Goudge's crag check comments

Checked by Ian Goudge, his comments are below:

"I went to Bargoed for the first time on Saturday. I printed the details from the wiki and used the directions - all worked fine.

The descriptions for the routes we climbed were fine, the routes were: Bargoed Bushwhacker; Bargoed Sideshow; Pepperatzi; Groping For Jugs; Hawk’s Cheep; Brittania; and, Bargain Basement Bargoed. Without starting a discussion on the grades, I felt they were approximately right. Looking at the guide and the lines there, the descriptions seem accurate enough.

My only comment is on the wiki route descriptions, route number 2 is down as a project, however there is no current evidence of a project between route numbers 1 & 3 (and not a lot of space). So not sure if this is correct or not.

Sorry, forgot to take the camera so no pictures."