SWMC Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Foxhole Cove

2017-04-27T12:31:54Z

Danny McCarroll: clarify position of new routes

Hi Tim,

Can we start putting first ascent info at the bottom of the page in small text please.?--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 13:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Its not very interesting and takes up lots of space on the wiki pages.

== Palace ==

I wanted to ask if anyone had heard about a foothold of handhold being broken off palace of swords? I was wondering if this has happened and whether it has been climbed since?

:Not sure why Palace keeps getting upgraded. This 'lost a foothold' business is plain wrong as I never used the missing footholds. Several people from the peak and one from North Wales repeated the route last year (2009) and no-one thought it was Fr8a+. The consensus is a clear Fr8a with a V7 crux.
:Ta Goi

Hi Goi, am interested to know how you did the crux as the picture in the guide shows you using the broken foothold? Cheers Kev

:Apologies Goi, I have been re-looking at the photo of you on POS Reversed and noticed that you are not using the foothold that is presumed to be missing. Am still interested to find out how you did the crux though. In terms of difficulty, this may well be 8a as you say, but the crux is definitely harder than V7. This would get at least V8 at Parisella's. Kev

==New Routes at Foxhole ==

New route left of Basil Brush:

Vulpix 4+ a pleasant exercise in bridging up the cleaned runnel. FA: Rhiannon McCarroll 17th April 2017

: Thanks for this. I added your route to the main article text. Apologies, but editing has been restricted just recently. Normal service will be resumed shortly. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 19:47, 17 April 2017 (BST)

Marmalade skies (7a+ maybe but grade needs to be confirmed). Takes a direct line up the overhanging orange wall between Unholy Alliance and Connard Canard. Nice technical climbing, with a boulder problem start and tricky finish. It is a filler-in of course but the climbing is good and it stays dry.

Danny McCarroll and John Bullock 5th March 2013

Basil Brush (Grade 4). long route taking the line of least resistance to the left of Unholy Alliance. Steeper and better than it looks (thank goodness).

Danny McCarroll and John Bullock 2nd March 2013

===26 April 2017===
New route left of 'The Power of the Leopard Skin Legwarmers': Leopard Prints (Grade 4?) "Climb the pleasant slab just right of the corner" FA: Steve Rusling and Bethan McCarroll Jan 2017

New Route: The first line inside the cleft left of the 'Leopards' slab: Cleftomaniac (Grade 4?): A steep start, or wide bridging, gains entry to the clean slab which is climbed to the left of the bolts. Watch your back when lowering. FA: Bethan McCarroll and Danny McCarroll April 2017

New route: In the lower tidal zawn at the inland end: Coral Corner (Grade 5) Climbs the stepped hanging slabs to an exciting finish. Walk round to rescue your clips from the lower-off. FA: Conor White and Bethan McCarroll May 2016.

:Thanks for these. I added the first of the routes into the main article text but didn't the two others (i.e. ''Cleftomaniac'' and ''Coral Corner'') because I am unsure as to where they might fit in. Can you give an indication as to which routes they should fit between please? --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 11:04, 27 April 2017 (BST)

Hi Tim. Cleftomaniac goes just before Leopard prints

Coral Corner lies betweeen Requin and deep cut slab.

Many thanks

Danny

==Closed shop==
Hi Tim if you unlock then maybe you/I could add these to the wikki Text--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:34, 7 March 2013 (GMT)

: Ooops... sorry...! --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:39, 7 March 2013 (GMT)
==Protocol Poser==
Not sure if I'm following the rosier or hoddyfying path(br)<<>>so will let you sort it out between you.I've put the 1st ascentionists(sorry this is SWMC so acentonists) details after the route as the #list is a pain to do at the end.

Talk:Foxhole Cove

2017-04-26T18:30:49Z

Danny McCarroll: New routes at Foxhole

Hi Tim,

Can we start putting first ascent info at the bottom of the page in small text please.?--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 13:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Its not very interesting and takes up lots of space on the wiki pages.

== Palace ==

I wanted to ask if anyone had heard about a foothold of handhold being broken off palace of swords? I was wondering if this has happened and whether it has been climbed since?

:Not sure why Palace keeps getting upgraded. This 'lost a foothold' business is plain wrong as I never used the missing footholds. Several people from the peak and one from North Wales repeated the route last year (2009) and no-one thought it was Fr8a+. The consensus is a clear Fr8a with a V7 crux.
:Ta Goi

Hi Goi, am interested to know how you did the crux as the picture in the guide shows you using the broken foothold? Cheers Kev

:Apologies Goi, I have been re-looking at the photo of you on POS Reversed and noticed that you are not using the foothold that is presumed to be missing. Am still interested to find out how you did the crux though. In terms of difficulty, this may well be 8a as you say, but the crux is definitely harder than V7. This would get at least V8 at Parisella's. Kev

== new routes at Foxhole ==

New route left of 'The Power of the Leopard Skin Legwarmers': Leopard Prints (Grade 4?) "Climb the pleasant slab just right of the corner" FA: Steve Rusling and Bethan McCarroll Jan 2017

New Route: The first line inside the cleft left of the 'Leopards' slab: Cleftomaniac (Grade 4?): A steep start, or wide bridging, gains entry to the clean slab which is climbed to the left of the bolts. Watch your back when lowering. FA: Bethan McCarroll and Danny McCarroll April 2017

New route: In the lower tidal zawn at the inland end: Coral Corner (Grade 5) Climbs the stepped hanging slabs to an exciting finish. Walk round to rescue your clips from the lower-off. FA: Conor White and Bethan McCarroll May 2016.

New route left of Basil Brush:

Vulpix 4+ a pleasant exercise in bridging up the cleaned runnel. FA: Rhiannon McCarroll 17th April 2017

: Thanks for this. I added your route to the main article text. Apologies, but editing has been restricted just recently. Normal service will be resumed shortly. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] ([[User talk:Tim Hoddy|talk]]) 19:47, 17 April 2017 (BST)

Marmalade skies (7a+ maybe but grade needs to be confirmed). Takes a direct line up the overhanging orange wall between Unholy Alliance and Connard Canard. Nice technical climbing, with a boulder problem start and tricky finish. It is a filler-in of course but the climbing is good and it stays dry.

Danny McCarroll and John Bullock 5th March 2013

Basil Brush (Grade 4). long route taking the line of least resistance to the left of Unholy Alliance. Steeper and better than it looks (thank goodness).

Danny McCarroll and John Bullock 2nd March 2013

==Closed shop==
Hi Tim if you unlock then maybe you/I could add these to the wikki Text--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:34, 7 March 2013 (GMT)

: Ooops... sorry...! --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:39, 7 March 2013 (GMT)
==Protocol Poser==
Not sure if I'm following the rosier or hoddyfying path(br)<<>>so will let you sort it out between you.I've put the 1st ascentionists(sorry this is SWMC so acentonists) details after the route as the #list is a pain to do at the end.

Talk:Foxhole Cove

2017-04-17T18:35:24Z

Danny McCarroll: new route at Foxhole

Crag Maintenance

2013-05-29T21:48:57Z

Danny McCarroll:

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
<hr>

'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

<hr>

'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll
<hr>

'''Crag:'''LLangattock

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree. I thought the idea of this wiki page was that we would discuss crags BEFORE they were developed. It seems that applies to sport climbing but not trad climbing. So as soon as we propose a crag for bolting is it OK to go and trad everything, write a mini-guide and effectively ban bolting? I am glad that I do not live near Llangattock and so have no reason to bust a blood vessel. Danny McCarroll.

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

__NOTITLE__
__NOTOC__

Crag Maintenance

2013-05-29T21:35:57Z

Danny McCarroll:

[[Image:Crag maintenance.png|800px|center|alt="Crag Maintenance|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting 2013==
[http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2798 Documents from BMC Meeting (31/01/2013)]

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Recently declared SS I, like Malham ,Goredale etc. The NT have declined permission to bolt. Those wishing to repeat will have to replace the pegs and threads themselves.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:13, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.
Done fully regeared,respect the two ongoing projects.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:58, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
These are all awaiting dry conditions,maybe this summer (unless it's like 2012) so keep off them until until informed of completion on wikki.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 20:54, 9 March 2013 (GMT)
<hr>

'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

<hr>

'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' [[Foxhole_Cove#Deep_Cut_.28Dark_Side_of_the_Moon_Zawn.29|Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)]]

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of [[Foxhole]]. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Abbey Butress Port Talbot

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolt PR job and hack path through gorse

'''Comments:''' Seek FA opinion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 21:04, 9 March 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Alan Rosier

'''Description:''' Retro Black Magic

'''Comments:''' The same bolts on the reto'd black magic would also replace two 30yr old comedy pegs on ladybird traverse.

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Graves_End#Graves_End_Wall|Graves End]]'''

'''Proposer:''' John Bullock 27/5/13

'''Description:''' Would like to propose turning this unfrequented trad area into a sports crag. The rock is generally of poor quality particularly in the lower half and gear placements are often in friable positions. However, there appear to be reliable areas of rock mixed in (generally with no trad kit!) that could take bolts. I think this area could provide an excellent and popular source of good middle grade sports routes if bolted.

'''Comments:'''Excellent idea John there are also a few routes relying on rusty metal and bootlace threads of the exploding nature(personal experience)Maybe FA could be consulted re their "opinions "of retroing.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

I agree John ...... Great idea. Quality of protection here is poor even for the lower grades. Daniel Cook

Sounds good to me too, but who consults the F.A. is it a gaggle of individuals or the BMC rep? Maybe I missed this and it has been discussed at a Swansea meeting? --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

I agree that this would make a good sport venue. It is not a good trad venue at all. Note that is was not included in the recent selected guide to Gower and I fully understand why. It is quite a steep crag, so you really have to pull on the holds, and the rock quality is basically not up to the job. The result is that climbing here is a bit of a gamble; you might be lucky but you might not. Survival intact has little to do with skill. Personally I am very very fond of my lower limbs, and my back does not repond well to extreme shock, so I have not been tempted to climb much here, even though it is a very local crag. Bolting would totally transform it. It is a really beautiful and stangely remote part of Gower. It is rarely wet, often sunny and, what makes it really special for me, it is graced by falcons. There is no better place on Gower to hold the rope and gaze at the sky. Why don't we stop moaning about the good old days, and pretending that the trad climbing here is worth preserving, and embrace the joy of actually going climbing, rather than just reading about it in old guide books? Danny McCarroll
<hr>

'''Crag:'''LLangattock

'''Proposer:''' R.Thomas

'''Description:''' Re previous proposition.Some heel dragging going on here, for what/whom/when do we wait.

'''Comments:'''What's happening about the proposed "seperate" Llangattock meeting as it's an area "of National significance
Who has done lots of "significant new routes there"? When will these be disclosed or will we have to wait until after they appear in a climbing publication.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] ([[User talk:Roy thomas|talk]]) 15:08, 27 May 2013 (BST)

With some second hand info and reading between the lines a little, I think the following sums up the situation (and please correct me with hard facts if I interpret the situation incorrectly).

#Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales) has spoken to the land owners about potential for bolts (be it installing bolted lower offs / sports routes / retro bolting / whatever...?) in advance of discussion between climbers. 
#In a recent call to arms for a crag clean up, the installation of dedicated belay stakes were talked about. 
#Martin Crocker is in the process of producing a mini guide to the Llangattock Escarpment detailing old and new developments.

All this sounds like the discussions on bolts have resulted in a no bolt agreement, the details of discussions are likely to be presented in conjunction with the mini guide.

All in all sounds like no change. --[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] ([[User talk:Alan rosier|talk]]) 09:42, 29 May 2013 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

__NOTITLE__
__NOTOC__

Crag Maintenance

2013-03-06T22:15:54Z

Danny McCarroll:

[[Image:Bolting_proposals.png|800px|center|alt="Bolting Proposals|link=]]
==Background==
At the South Wales bolt meeting July 2011 it was agreed that proposals for [[Gower|Gower crags]] to be bolted should be voted on at the regular area meetings. Following agreement at an area meeting, consent would then be sought from the landowner before bolting takes place – so the consensus of the climbing community at an area meeting does not necessarily mean that the landowner has given consent.

In the area meeting in March 2012, it was agreed that any one proposing crags/routes to bolt is asked to post them onto the SWMC wiki before bringing them up at the local area meeting, so that climbers can consider them and visit the crag if necessary to inform their view.

Please note that all proposals listed on this page should be considered 'projects' and left unclimbed while consensus is being reached so hands off!

'''N.B. You will need to [[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]] (if you don't already have one), if you wish to add a proposal or make a comment. Please remember:'''
*Use your real name as your username
*Constructive comments are welcomed
*Be polite and respectful at all times
*Sign your posts (use the signature icon on the edit toolbar)

==Proposals to be discussed in area meeting Sept 2012==

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llangattock]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' Bolting Policy Review

'''Comments:''' Quarried limestone, lower offs required due to frequent "theft" of stakes and rubbly top outs. "Old school" clip up "harder" routes with decayed gear. New route potential for lower grade sport routes.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 23:31, 13 August 2012 (BST)

Lower offs make sense here as the top outs are so horrible. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Lower offs seem sensible, but bolting exsisting trad lines seems a waste of time when there is so much unclimbed rock, why not develop new areas for sport and leave the trad as it is ? Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Navigation Quarry - Cilfynydd]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Gary Lewis

'''Description:''' Additional bolt to headwall of ''Fly Me to the Moon''

'''Comments:''' A climber sustained serious injury on this route recently.

This has already been done - so not sure why it's here. If the FA wants to do it (and already has done it), then fair enough. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Foxhole|Foxhole (Gower)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' Roy Thomas

'''Description:''' ''Little Miss Lover'' E4 6a

'''Comments:''' Replace old fixed gear with bolts, install belay - this is generally regarded as a "sport crag" --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:23, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Didn't realise there were trad routes here to be honest. Sounds like it would be better off as a sport route, on what is basically a sport crag. Assuming the FA agrees, then guess so. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
As agreed at the June 2011 meeting the FA doesn't have to agree but "be consulted",has anyone been in touch with him (Martin Crocker)--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:42, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Rhossili#Silent Fright Buttress|Rhossili - Silent Fright Buttress]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolt and install belay on ''SILENT FRIGHT'' E4 6a, ''Executioner's Thrill'' E4 6b, ''Audience of Sheep'' E5 6b also new sport developement permitted.

'''Comments:''' The whole of this area is quarried non tidal limestone. The National Trust have permitted sport developement in this area last year, the routes have a great deal of corroding fixed gear and "tat"; ''Audience of Sheep'' already has a bolt. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:38, 20 August 2012 (BST)

Have mixed feelings about this. There are already several hard sport routes in the area, do we really need to retro all the hard trad routes as well? What does the FA say? [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Andy Sharp(the FA) agrees in fact he suggested it to me that's why it's mainly his routes named.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:45, 3 September 2012 (BST)

Personally i would rather this was all left as Trad, not convinced it would be a great sport venue anyway and the lines mentioned are very good trad lines that are not 'Clip up's'
the rock on the lower half of Audiance with sheep would not take a bolt (very loose) so you would end up with a sketchy sport route that would be inviting a incedent. Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Odin%27s_Wall#Odin.27s_Cave|Odin's Cave - (Three Tors Area)]]'''

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description: '''Bolt, install belay on ''Obscenities'' E4 6b. Also permit new sport development.

'''Comments: '''Non tidal "cave" corroded fixed gear. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 11:47, 20 August 2012 (BST)

The whole Three Cliffs area should remain bolt free IMHO. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Pobbles Quarries|Pobbles Bay Quarries (Three Cliffs Bay)]]''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST))

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy Thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Bolts, lots of them wooooooo!! spreading through the bay.

'''Comments:''' Old non tidal quarr(y)(ies) suitable for easier sport routes at the grade of climbing predominant in [[Three Cliffs|Three Cliffs Bay]] but without having to fumble with your nuts or risk getting wet feet.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:20, 21 August 2012 (BST)

I'd agree with this proposal. Having climbed there tonight, the trad climbing is poor due to lack of protection, loose top and nothing to anchor the top belay to except some gorse bushes 15m back from the edge. Bolting and a little clean up of loose rock would provide 4 or 5 pleasant, safe, accessible, low grade climbs. Gower is lacking beginner friendly sports routes. --[[User:Tim Boothby|Tim Boothby]] 00:09, 23 August 2012 (BST)

We have cleared the bolting of this quarry with the NT(have confirmatory e mail)but the first ascentionist(s) of the established routes should be consulted(note change in wording as a result of group decision at the 2011 meeting)so if the meeting agree on the 4th Sept there should be no reason not to go ahead despite the profusion of "quality" trad routes appearing there.--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

Again, would prefer the area to remain bolt free. [[User:Matthew Moore|Matthew Moore]] 13:13, 3 September 2012 (BST)

This old quarry is a prime candidate for bolting. No one in their right mind would want to climb trad there unless, perhaps, to bag a first ascent. I understand that the first ascentionists are keen for this crag to be fully bolted. If that happens then it would make a nice, non-tidal, sheltered climbing spot for beginners. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:32, 3 September 2012 (BST)
Fully agree Tim anyone can bolt my two trad lines there if they wish--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 10:14, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''The Creation of an account

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Several people have commented that they would like to post on this forum but have no"account"

'''Comments:'''As this is open and they can read it,HOW DO THEY DO THIS?
--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 09:51, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: They use the 'Create Account' link at the top right of each page! Please remember to use your REAL NAME as your username (e.g. 'Fred Bloggs', 'Sidney Greenstreet', 'Tim Hoddy', etc.), otherwise I'll probably just delete the account. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:07, 2 September 2012 (BST)

: You could also use this link to sign up. '''[[Special:UserLogin/signup|Create an Account]]''' --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 11:02, 2 September 2012 (BST)

<hr>

'''Crag:'''Llantrisant Drugs Cliff

'''Proposer:'''--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:'''Sandstone Quarry

'''Comments:'''Regear very old bolts(8mms)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Paviland Far Far West]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:36, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Complete the refurbishment with bolts

'''Comments:''' Agreed at June 2011 Gower meeting and NT on side.

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Llanbradach]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 13:59, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Continue regearing

'''Comments:''' There are 100 or so routes here another 15+still need rebolting

<hr>

'''Crag:''' '''[[Barland Quarry|Barlands Quarry Gower]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)

'''Description:''' Slabs with missing/ crumbling old hangers.

'''Comments:''' Replace Lower Offs/refurbish old bolt/hangers where needed. New sport routes provided a rope can be got in from the top. This place is popular for the easier route and a bit of the shiny stuff would do wonders. There are also some hard 7a,7b+ routes that need bolt hangers which have been missing for 15yrs. --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:15, 3 September 2012 (BST)
:Some regearing work was started but the regearing rope and screwgate anchors were stolen before completion--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Machen Cycle Track Quarry

'''Proposer:''' Rhys Mence

'''Description:''' Recent Bolting

'''Comments:''' Someone has begun bolting routes in this quarry and i'm wondering who it might be? I live in Machen and would be more than happy to help set up routes. Theres large amounts of moss and vegetation on the walls but when i realised someone had bolted a line I had a good look and realised this crag could have some potentially great routes. It's not a large quarry and seepage could be a problem but it's easy accessible if your willing to walk 10 minutes down the track.

:Hi rhys, I imagine its Dave Emmanuelle. He's a user here so ty him.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 22:46, 18 September 2012 (BST)
<hr>

'''Crag: [[Foxhole]]'''

'''Proposer:''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Description:''' Little Miss Lover

'''Comments: Anyone contacted Crocker yet,if all agree shall a complets refit be done?Just seen the minutes for forthcoming meeting and see this has recieved attention.'''

<hr>

'''Crag: [[Llangattock]]--[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description: Any news of the placing of lower offs/bolting meeting supposed to be taking place solely to discuss this area.'''

'''Comments:''' Just seen the minutes of the meeting and see that this has been mentioned

<hr>

'''Crag: Port Eynon''' --[[User:Roy thomas|Roy thomas]] 14:48, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:''' Sport routes in the zawns possibly already proposed by others previously.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:''' Deep Cut (Dark Side of the Moon Zawn)

'''Proposer:''' Danny McCarroll

'''Description:''' This is the tidal bit of Foxhole. Propose to bolt the existing easier trad routes here and add a few lines to give a collection of easier sport routes. Foxhole is a sport crag now and these routes are rarely if ever climbed. In contrast, the one easy route on the slab above (Power of the leapord skin leg warmers, grade 3) is very popular. Adding these routes would provide a much-needed venue where beginners can learn to climb outside in relative safety. The lower-offs would be accesible from the top, so someone can stand there and check that learners are threading properly. Most of the routes were climbed by Goi and/or Roy. Roy has agreed, I have not spoken to Goi yet.

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

<hr>

'''Crag:'''

'''Proposer:'''

'''Description:'''

'''Comments:'''

__NOTITLE__
__NOTOC__

Talk:Foxhole Cove

2013-03-06T21:56:31Z

Danny McCarroll: /* new routes at Foxhole */ new section

Talk:Bowen's Parlour

2012-03-20T18:36:46Z

Danny McCarroll:

Chris... Which crags are either side of this craglet? That is, where should it go in the list of crags? --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 10:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The Pantheon is just to the East (to the right of the pic)

Goodday Tim . Its correct in the contents section : Mitchin hole to hunts bay. Just West of Spring Zawn--[[User:Chris Wyatt|Chris Wyatt]] 14:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

: OK... thanks Chris. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 06:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

New route

Still nifty at fifty F7a+

Start inside the cave as for 'When I'm 64'. Climb directly up the leaning pillar until forced left on to very steep ground leading to rings at the apex of the roof. Perfect rock and each move harder than the last. To be continued.

Danny McCarroll and John Bullock 2011

Watch House Slab

2011-07-06T13:54:52Z

Danny McCarroll:

[[Contents]][[Image:watchhousecragshot.jpg|400 px|thumb|right|Watch House Crag]]

[[Gower]]

'''[[Shire Combe To Watch House East]]'''

'''GR SS 548 873'''

== PREAMBLE ==

A very smart little crag that is non-tidal and has some excellent routes up to 15m long.

The rock is limestone, smooth and slabby at the base and bulging and rough above half height. There are some interesting features such as sandstone, breccia and calcite viens to give the routes some individual character.

The crag faces south west and so gets the sun by mid morning. However, as the crag lies within a deep gully it does not get the benefit of evening sunshine.

== ACCESS ==

Walk west from the [http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-global/w-localtoyou/w-wales.htm National Trust] car park. Pass the first headland (above [[Foxhole Cove]]) and out onto the second headland.

It is hidden beneath the headland opposite the last house (usually flying a flag) and a steep path directly above the cliff.

But a better approach takes a diagonal track running westwards from the first headland down to a large non-tidal platform. Facing the sea, turn right and walk round into the gully; ten minutes from bus-stop to first bolt.

== DESCENTS ==

Sport routes have shared or individual lower offs with stainless rings. A pre-placed rope should be considered for the trad routes.

== THE ROUTES ==

Are these described in the traditional manner, from left to right.

[[Image:Watchhouse left topo.jpg|500 px|thumb|right|Routes 1 to 9]]

1. '''Excavation - Fr.6a'''

Enjoyable, start at the obvious sandstone beehive at the extreme LHS and stay left of the (loose) arête. Can be climbed right of bolts at about Fr.4.

2. '''Mr Angry - VS,4b'''

Loose. Start at a leftwards slanting groove, with some sandy rock at its base. Climb the groove for 6m then move rightwards to finish straight up over a tiny overlap.

3. '''Tickety-Boo - Fr.5+/6a'''

Nice slabby climbing.

'''‘''''''Rise and shine’''' ''' F5*.'''
A delightful jaunt, with rapidly increasing exposure. Climb to the second bolt on ‘Tickety-boo’ then break diagonally right along the obvious line of weakness, all the way to the lower-off at the top of the ‘St Vitus dance’ slab. The gear should be removed on top-rope.

4. '''Fob - E1,5c'''

Start 3m right of Mr Angry. Make awkward moves up a thin crack, then continue directly, taking care with loose undercuts on the overlap.

5. '''Sport Wars - Fr.6a'''

Start left of the bolts. Interesting moves lead to pleasant climbing above.

6. '''Tread Gently - Fr.6b+'''

A slithery start leads to easier climbing above.

7. '''Mainspring - E1,6a'''

Start 3m down the slope from Fob. Mantleshelf with difficulty over the initial bulge and continue directly, PR, to a grassy ledge. Finish diagonally up the final wall. Belay well back or slide off to a sport route chain.

8. '''St Vitus’s Dance - Fr.6c+'''

A slab climbers delight climbing straight up to the little arch. Not as blank as it looks. The name alludes to the full-body wobble of the first ascentionist.

9. '''The Drilling Fields - Fr.7a'''

Nice moves over the overlap and above to an enjoyable open finish.

[[Image:watchhouse right topo.jpg|300 px|thumb|right|Routes 8 to 14]]
10. '''Anonymous Bosch - Fr.6b'''

Slabby and then steep.

11. '''Jaded Locals - Fr.6b **'''

Romps up the big undercuts before swinging rightwards through the steep section. Nice.

12. '''I Bolt, Therefore I Am - Fr.6c+ *'''

Climbs straight up to and through the overhang left of the calcite streak, staying just left of the bolts throughout. The moves through the overhang are very fingery, so good luck in finding the hidden finishing hold!

13. '''Escapement - E2,5b'''

A strenuous line just left of a calcite streak PR.

'''‘Bending sickle’ 6a**'''

A right to left curving diagonal, following the line of pockets under the overhangs to finish up the final slab of ‘St Vitus Dance’. Very nice climbing and surprisingly different to the routes it crosses. Start just left of the calcite fault at the right end of the crag, then follow the pockets under the overhang until they run out. Clip the bolt above but keep going left, using side-pulls, to join St Vitus Dance at the arch, then romp up the final slab.

14. '''Trad Man - Fr.6a+'''

Spaced bolts and poor rock produce a route to delight the traditionalist. Crosses the calcite vein rightwards using a sandstone wasps nest. Follow the left edge of the wall past sharp breccia holds and finish carefully up a freshly excavated left facing corner. Slightly off putting rock and bolt spacing.

===MAP===

<googlemap version="0.9" lat="51.566507" lon="-4.091721" zoom="16">
51.565933, -4.0965, Watch House Crag
Watch House Crag
51.566897, -4.087842
Parking
</googlemap>

===FIRST ASCENTS===



1. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

2. E.Alsford, P.Donnithorne 16.09.1988

3. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

4. G.Evans, N.Lewis 18.09.1986

5. D Cook and D McCarroll 2008

6. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

7. G.Evans, N.Lewis, J.Bullock 23.07.1986

8. D McCarroll and D Cook 2008

9. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

10. J.Bullock, L.Moran 09.07.1986

11. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

12. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

13. J.Bullock, L.Moran 09.07.1986

14. J Bullock and D McCarroll 2008

Rise and Shine: Bethan McCarrroll June 2011
Bending Sickle Danny McCarroll and John Bullock May 2011

Talk:Bolt policy on Gower

2011-07-06T13:16:47Z

Danny McCarroll:

Just to get etiquette sorted out.

Can we leave discussion of the pros and cons to this page.

When we have the BMC meeting the front page will form the agenda OK? --[[User:Chris Wyatt|Chris Wyatt]] 17:26, 13 November 2010 (GMT)19:40, 6 November 2010 (GMT)'''

'''Also - Can we all say who we are?'''

<hr>

I just came across this but have become very interested. I think a good starting point would be to publish some kind of 'meeting minutes' from the BMC area meeting held on 3/11/10. What exactly was the general view mentioned on the front page? Who was there? Were these biased? Did the majority get to speak over the minority views? ... and then the whole raft of issues from there on! Personally i'd like to see the minutes, as a starting point, before making comment. I had no idea bolts were on the BMC's agenda. --[[User:Steven Delaney|Del]] 07:09, 8 November 2010 (GMT)

<hr>

I agree with Steve, we should have the minutes and current bolt policy at the bottom of the page for reference.--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 09:39, 9 November 2010 (GMT)

<hr>

Stu .. If you are reading this could we have some minutes?? Cheers --[[User:Chris Wyatt|Chris Wyatt]] 20:27, 9 November 2010 (GMT)

Link to the minutes from the meeting on 3rd November;
http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=292
Apologises for delay, work has been getting in the way. Respond with my penny worth soon
Stuart Llewellyn

==MEETING DETAILS==

'''June 4th will not be the date for the meeting''' I've struggled to get few things together, and it looks as if the meeting may be moved towards the end of July, to fit in with a venue on Gower and a possible chair for the meeting. If you have a suggestion on this topic please add it to the wiki, as I am attempting to pull it together in one document which will form a basis for the meeting. Ill keep this page updated with info on the meeting. - Stuart Llewellyn

''' Saturday 23rd July, 7.30pm North Gower Hotel''' Is the new date for this meeting. Will do a UKC and BMC community post by end of the week. Has everyone got to create an account to be able to add to this thread now?

: Yes, everyone will need to create an account, preferably using their full name, e.g. "Fred Bloggs", etc... --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 21:49, 7 June 2011 (BST)

==GENERAL BOLT POLICY==

Let's be clear. There was not really a general bolt policy agreed for Gower. It was all done on a crag by crag basis, so if there is any conflict between the general policy and the policy specific to a crag, the crag policy is the correct one.

The general policy was an attempt to retro-fit some over-arching themes to the crag specifics, so in this case, it seems to have failed.

Let's not waste any time going over this particular issue at the meeting on the 23rd July.

Goi

: From p. 14 of the guidebook. "''The following aspects of the policy are more general. Please keep to the policy, which reflects the wishes of local climbers.''" This is followed by bullet points 1 to 7. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 16:34, 1 July 2011 (BST)

In fact I'll copy that section from the guidebook: '''Gower & S.E. Wales''', ''Goi Ashmore and Roy Thomas'', pages 14-15. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 15:58, 2 July 2011 (BST)

==AREA BOLTING POLICY==

South East Wales and Gower has a bolt policy agreed at a series of Open Meetings at WICC in 1999-2000, chaired
by Wayne Gladwin (brave man) and minuted by Stuart Thompson. The bolting policy is listed seperately for each
crag, except for the sandstone, where it is noted at the start of the section. The following aspects of the policy are more
general. Please keep to the policy, which reflects the wishes of local climbers.

#Bolting will be defined as the placement of any ‘drilled gear’ assumed to be bolts.
#De-bolting/smashing/spoiling of bolts is totally condemned.
#New sports routes should avoid interfering with existing traditional routes.
#Where (3) might occur, the first ascensionist of the traditional route should be consulted. It is left to the conscience of the leader to consult with the others on first ascent.
#Retro-bolting, where permissible, requires the permission of the first ascensionist. Retro-bolting for the purposes of this policy, means making a route into a clip up, rather than replacing worn placements with bolts.
#Replacement of worn placements with bolts should be on a ‘point for point’ basis and only at specified crags.
#Bolting at crags discovered in the future should assume the following:

::Natural Sandstone – No Bolting
::Gower – No Bolting
::Quarried Sandstone – Sports routes allowed.
::Quarried Limestone – Sports routes allowed.
::Other rock types – Apply common sense, i.e. do not bolt up adequately protected cracks on natural limestone, for instance.

Bolts should be at least 8.8mm or staples and for sea-cliffs should always be BS316 stainless steel.

Those of you who have climbed on the fabulous South East Wales sandstone and other bolted crags will no doubt
have thought about the time and expense that has gone into bolting and equipping. Put your hand in your pocket and
make a donation the South East Wales Bolt Fund. Without it and your contributions, there will be no quality sports
routes or quality bolts for you to fall on. Please send your vital contributions c/o, Roy Thomas, 90 Robins Hill,
Brackla, BRIDGEND CF31 2PS.

It would be a good idea to bring any future problems to the attention of the correct forum of discussion, namely the BMC
Committee of Wales area meetings. Your input is vital and welcomed.

==BOLT POLICY DEBATE==

===1===

here are my initial thoughts: Chris Wyatt : 5/11/10

. Paviland Main cliff and Juniper wall should have a zero fixed gear policy. ie no renewals and preferably removal of existing fixed gear including abseil ring

. Fall bay should have a zero fixed gear policy. ie no renewals and preferably removal of existing fixed gear.

. The assumption for all crags west of oxwich should be no new sport routes. Any crags with 'new sport routes allowed' should be revised to 'No new sport routes allowed.'

. Shirecombe to Pennard should be 'New sport routes allowed'. (Note after environmental impact is considered)

. New sport routes in Pennard/Graves End to Pwll Du should be allowed provided they do not interfere with existing trad routes.

. Bolts should be allowed to replace existing Pegs and threads in Pennard to Pwll Du

<hr>
===2===

: My thoughts --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 23:30, 5 November 2010 (GMT)
: Agree with Chris on this... except, and Chris will probably agree, it should be that the assumption for all crags west of [[Shire Combe]] should be 'No New Sports Routes'. except for [[Oxwich Quarry]].

: Agree with Chris too on [[Paviland Main Cliff]] and [[Juniper Wall]] moving towards becoming completely clean.

:: ''"I'm not sure a blanket 'ban' is appropriate. If whole stretches of coastline are banned and sport route free, doesn't this imply that all the other areas are 'open' to sport route development? Surely Debs and Trial Wall are not to be de-bolted? Better done on an ad-hoc basis I think."''

: I didn't mean [[Deborah's Overhang]] and [[Trial Wall]] should be de-bolted, but I think a 'blanket-ban' (unfortunate phrase) on further sports route development would not be inappropriate. A blanket-ban in one area '''does-not''' imply that a ''free-for-all'' (also unfortunate) exists outside it. There are excellent arguments for more sports routes east of [[Shire_Combe_Buttress_and_West_Slab|Shire Combe]]. However, there are equally good ones for maintaining the wild and remote character of the coastline west of Port Eynon. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 12:24, 6 November 2010 (GMT)

<hr>

===3===

''Thanks Ian for pointing out the usefulness of using Chris' original list to clarify the debate. My response.''

1) Are there any crags on gower which are 'no bolting' which should be 'New sport routes allowed'?

''Probably. Hairy dog wall sounded good for it. I don't know the whole coastline well enough to comment on every bit of rock though.''

2) What say should first ascensionists have in the treatment of their routes?

''Maintaining or changing an individual routes character, is to me, less important than the overall crags character. Off hand, I can't think of any worthwhile routes that have been spoiled by bolting. Possibly by debolting ;-)
Yes, politeness dictates that first ascentionist should be informed/consulted where possible.''

3) Are there any trad crags which would benefit from fixed lower offs for climbing or environmental reasons?

''For safety reasons - yes! Why on earth would anyone want to risk pulling out of a climb on rubble and loose earth and then belay on little gorse bushes and bunny burrows! Anyway, also I think the damage to the cliff top environment/ecosystem is very visible at popular areas such as carreg y barcudd, st govans and the wye valley but not so visible at many less popular areas such as gower and ogmore. They are being damaged, they just aren't trashed yet. Will lower offs only be considered after the damage is already done?''

4) Are there any trad crags where old pegs and threads should be replaced by bolts?

''In my opinion, new pegs and threads would normally be sufficient to replace old ones. Maybe first ascentionists should maintain their routes (I know I do), or is the wider climbing community (i.e. someone else) expected to do this? The options are don't replace, replace on an ad-hoc basis or replace with a bolt. If replacement is deemed appropriate, maybe a stainless glue-in would be better and more permanent than continued (NON)replacement?''

5) Are there any trad crags which should be cleared from threads and pegs?

''Don't pegs just rot away and snap off anyway? Tatty old threads should be cleaned off when replaced and then replaced with something not too gaudy - maybe grey rope.''

6) Is there anywhere where debolting should be considered?

''Can't think of anywhere off-hand. Bolted areas I have seen appear to have been pretty well thought out and dare I say it - appropriate.''

7) Is the general wording of the policy in the guide book correct?

''Generally. However, I sometimes don't see the reason for all the banned crags, is it just because they are on gower/sea cliffs/natural outcrops. The rest of the UK seems to get along pretty well with a mix of trad and sport on sea cliffs.''

''I like Goi's idea of preventing bolting to maintain established trad climbing areas. Why try to prohibit an individual from climbing/developing new areas without good reason? This will probably just fragment the closely knit climbing community we have here in SE Wales.''

''I also get the feeling that some of the arguments against the use of fixed bolt protection are just plain strange. Especially the environmental ones, I mean, how is sport climbing any more damaging to the environment that traditional climbing?''

--[[User:Alan rosier|Alan rosier]] 16:38, 4 July 2011 (BST)

<hr>

===4===

::Hi. As a climber who has climbed extensively in the Gower over the past ten tears (both Trad and Sport) I would just like to make a few points.

1. I am a firm believer in good Trad venues (Lewis Castle, Pennard, Yellow Wall to name a few) should remain trad as the rock quality and gear is "solid" and the sense of adventure is great. However there are crags where the gear is sparse or non existent, does this mean they should be left unclimbed or turned into excellent sport venues (Deborah Zawn)?

2. A number of trad routes (Crockers routes at 3rd Sister) rely heavily on pegs which were "bomber" protection for the First Ascensionist "back in the day" but have been left to rot in the coastal breeze and can no longer be relied upon. Why cant a bolt be placed instead as after all a thread or peg is "fixed" protection? Lets not have the "threads and pegs can be removed" as we all know they never are.

3. Why is there a Trad versus Sport conflict? If a climber wants the adventure of placing gear with Trad or pushing they're limits safely with Sport they should be able to seek out the relevant crags. I don't think it should be up to a few individuals climbing preferences to decide what every climber must do. isn't that elitist?

4. There is enough rock in the vast area of The Gower to accommodate both styles of climbing, let both of them thrive!

Cheers

Dean Howard

<hr>

===5===

Having done probably an equal share of new trad and new sport routes on Gower, and having repeated a lot, if not most of the routes on Gower, I'd like to add my opinion to this discussion. I'll try and keep it brief.

1) I am not in favour of any 'trad-only' areas - crags need to taken on an individual basis. For example, I'd never dream of placing bolts in Paviland, but the areas to its immediate west are clearly enhanced by bolts, and I want to propose the retro-bolting of Far Far West where it's nearly all rotten in-situ gear and needs lower-offs anyway.

2) I do not feel that the opinion of the first ascentionist is any more valid than anyone elses, whether a line is retrobolted is a matter for people who climb there, and no-one else.

3) I feel that fears of trad climbing being replaced by sport climbing are unfounded, bolting is really hard work and takes a lot of time, if something can be protected by trad gear then of course trad gear will be used. I can't help but feel that it is the idea of routes being bolted that is objected to and not that actuality - does anyone have an example of a line they wished to climb trad that was subsequently bolted? I don't.

4) I do feel that expansion bolts and chains can be visually intrusive, and I feel that glue-ins should be used from now on.

5) I feel that protection should either be trad or bolts - the idea of replacing the odd peg with a bolt just sounds ugly, though ultimately it's not something that anyone should rule out. I do however feel that belays are different, and that many crags could be improved considerably by placing bolt lower-offs.

Adrian Berry

<hr>

===6===

'''Bolt Policy: Gower'''
The current bolt policy on Gower is antiquated and should be scrapped and replaced by a protection of trad policy. This would be simpler to operate and more in line with the development of the area.

It also represents the current position; very few people seem to be interested in establishing new traditional routes on 'new' crags discovered.

The underlying assumption should be sports climbing development should be allowed anywhere on Gower with the exception of protected traditional climbing areas. These should be defined simply:

Fall Bay to Thurba Head inclusive,
Paviland Main Cliff to Juniper Wall inclusive,
Boiler Slab,
The Three Tors and Three Cliffs (except Odin's Cave),
Pennard to Graves End Wall (inclusive)

Trad climbing areas should not have any bolts placed at all except for lower offs. There should be no compulsion that trad routes must be completely free of fixed gear.

The issue about consulting the first ascenionist is a tricky one. In the past I have given some support to this line, but I have been disappointed where the first ascensionist of a redundant trad line wandering across the crag has obstructed the development of a worthwhile sports climbing venue, e.g. Taffs Well. I would be interested to see how this debate develops.

Goi Ashmore

'''Paviland Far Far West'''

I agree with Adrian's comments on Paviland Far Far West. I have done some routes there in the past when they were in a better state and they were always intended to be clip ups.
Goi

<hr>

===7===

I strongly disagree with a no blolts west of oxwich 'proposal' in fact there are many crags/ cragets that would be amazing bolted and not take anything away from the trad climbing in the area.
i do not see why sport climbing cannot take place in beautiful, wild locations just as traditional style routes.
Lower offs on routes such as those at Bucket land, Far Far West and other non top-outable (or just not a good idea to top-out crags) i would see a great step and would rekindle some intrest in many of these tradionaly protected routes.
As far as asking permission from first ascent climber, I belive its polite - but the Local climbing community as a whole should be considered as well.
on this subject i would like to 'propose' bolting Giant Killer at Dinas as the fixed kit is decayed and i belive under current policy i could replace with bolts?

it would be 3star 7b bolted, stay clean and become a regional classic

or it gets left and climbed once or twice in the next twenty or so years, stays filthy

Maybe this is the wish of the local community. but when i have spoken to several local climbers they are all keen on bolting the line. any way just a proposal as i find this part of the policy interesting and atm very open for interpritation.

next id like propose bolting Giants cave - not any of the trad routes (Divine guding light, Napalm etc should remain trad as they are strong, classy trad lines) im talking about the routes from the back of the cave (the Sistine Ceiling) that were done on bolts and then chopped by ???? and has seen no ascents (or at least very very few) since. ''This is the very route which initiated the bolting debate back in the early/mid 90s. The NT spotted the glinting line of bolts in the back of the cave and wanted to know who was 'disfiguring' their rock. The rest is history! Gwyn''

Bolting of areas such as Pennard,graves end seem a bit to far even for a sport climber like myself. but there are areas along this coast that could be looked at including Bantam Bay.

as far as bolts being intusive id agree they can be and glue ins (when done well) can look alot more tidy and are much harder to spot than a big chain (for the genral public etc...)

Looking at the policy again on a crag by crag basis seems a logical way to go as every turn of this coast is so differnt to the last and it would be hard to apply one rule to fit.

Simon Rawlinson

<hr>

===8===

* I feel that FAs should have the 'say' so to speak as to whether or not a route is bolted. If that prevents a crag from being bolted, then so be it.
* I would prefer a soft and light touch to bolting crags/routes, i.e. the absolute bare minimum of bolting and obviously there should be a no bolting on existing trad crags eg Fall Bay, Three Cliffs, Boiler Slab etc
* Personally I would rather that no bolting went on, but I'm aware that others do want sport climbing on the Gower, so I'm ok with it happening. But would like to see some of the hard trad climbs stay as hard trad climbs. I'd like to have the option to do some of the harder lines in the future and would rather not see them bolted.
* It would be nice to see some more new routes as trad routes on 'new' trad crags. Sadly I'm a c**p climber, so I'm unlikely to be doing that anytime soon.

Matthew Moore (matt-swmc@matthewmoore.org.uk)

<hr>

===9===

'''A contribution to the general bolt debate by Pat Littlejohn'''

You might be interested to read the views of a well-known local activist on bolting in South Wales. Pat Littlejohn gave this interview when he was in Cardiff as guest speaker at the SWMC's 50th anniversary celebrations. Here is the link: http://www.outdoorequipmentonline.co.uk/categories/resources - Gwyn Evans

There is also a few quotes from Pat here that are VERY relevant to the bolt debate in South Wales:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3563
--[[User:Steven Delaney|Del]] 19:15, 20 March 2011 (GMT)

<hr>

===10===

Stuart Llewellyn (stuart.llewellyn@gmail.com)

Read all of the above posts with interest, and from my point (ignoring my involvement with BMC) of view the bolt policy is antiquated and needs an update. This needs to be on a crag by crag process, and build upon what’s already in place, rather than a start from scratch scenario.
 

Some bolting in recent years has ignored the bolt policy in my personal opinion for the better and produced excellent sport climbing venues (Watch House Slab), and others are a step too far (Lower Bowen’s Parlour & Lower Golden Wall).
 

I believe both aspects of climbing can co-exist, and more importantly develop without impinging or hindering each other. At the moment new easier controversial sport routes are in existence because there isn’t scope for easy (sub 6b) sport routes to be developed.
 

Bowen’s parlour can be used as an example of what I’m trying to get at. The upper section, to look at seems an obvious sport climbing venue, it offers little natural protection, with unstable top outs. The 2000 bolt policy included this to allow new sport routes. The lower tidal section is not part of bolt policy, the sport routes have not retro’d previous trad routes, they are new routes, but the lines in most part offer plentiful of natural protection. The venue has since become very popular because of the grade range available.
 
With regards to First ascensionists permission, I share similar views to other posters, but I can’t provide an alternative system.
 

Anyway problems are easy to find, so here’s my attempt at some solutions.
 

'''Rhossili''' Trial Wall, the back side of this (round the corner from the Adultress) has 2 trad routes on it, following crack weakness’ on the quarried face. At the moment the policy states no new sport routes for the crag. My suggestion would be to allow new sport routes and bolt lower offs for this section. The existing trad routes could use these lower offs also, but leaving these lines bolt free and get some recent ascents.
 

There are also ‘New’ quarried faces, at least 2 possibly 3 other quarried faces, which to my knowledge have no trad lines on them, and don’t offer natural protection. They are a lot shorter and probably insignificant in some peoples eyes, but as a collection could make a nice venue. They are in effect new crags, and the policy assumes no bolting for new crags. Suggestion of altering these to new sport routes allowed.
 

All tidal lower faces (Sheepbone, Terrace, Poser etc..etc..) should remain bolt free. On the other upper sections (silent Fright area etc) as much as I’d love to do all those soaring arete’s (Silent Fright, Audience with Sheep etc) as sport, I believe they should be left alone and not turned into clip ups.
With these possible suggestions the Rhossili quarries could offer easy – mid range sport climbing without drilling natural cliffs.
 

'''Paviland Far Far West;''' I would also support bolt lower offs on this crag, but would not want it bolted into a clip up. The lines should remain trad, the lines look brilliant, but I’m completely put off by the top out. I might be wrong but reading the guide, it sounds as if pegs were used as lower off stations when first developed?
 

'''Bucketland;''' At present the bolt policy allows sport climbs here, I’d suggest removing this and to allow bolt lower offs only. Some new trad routes have been done here, ill pass details onto SWMC wiki

As a general remark to other future crags;
Natural rock – bolt free, bolt lower offs acceptable if top out is difficult to get out of.
Quarried rock – sport routes allowed, as long as they don’t interfere with existing trad lines.

Thanks for reading, so nearly deleted everything when trying to post this!
Stu

'''Suggestion of Saturday 4th June 2011 for the meeting. This avoids a few BMC events and May Bank Holidays, and hopefully plentifull notice? Not a confirmed date, I need to book a venue. Please give some comments, thanks Stu'''

<hr>

===11===

I'd like to propose:
For new routes- that no bolts should be placed in tidal crags, or where the protection available is inkeeping with the technical grade of the route.
This still allows pleanty of new and existing crags to be developed, but should protect existing, and possible new Trad venues.

For exiting routes:
Bolts should not replace pegs on exiting traditional lines on a "point for point basis". If a route is to be bolted then
lets make it a fully equiped sports route. Pegs should not be activly removed, but no more should be placed, save them for winter elsewhere.
Routes should be allowed to be retro bolted where the protection available is not inkeeping with the technical grade of the route, and after
consultation with the first assensioist where posible. I think that first ascensionist input is important but not the only factor to consider.

Aexample of protection inkeeping with technical grade would be the uppercliff at Bowens, where the nature of the rock does not easily accept
any level of traditional protection. The lower section however, could mostly be protected in a traditional manner inkeeping with the grade.
Here the topouts would be awful and so perhaps just bolt lower offs could have been used.

I see no reason why a crag can not contain both sport and trad lines, depending on the nature of the crag.

Matt Woodfield 20/4/11

<hr>

===12===

In order to try and make a comment/response to each point in Chris’s original list, I feel I need to start with the last point/question as this forms the basis of a lot of my views:

7) Is the general wording of the policy in the guide book correct?

Since I first started climbing (around five years ago) I have heard on numerous occasions from different circles of people that the bolting policy as outlined in the guide book is actually incorrect in places. However other than the guide book the policy itself is not a freely available document. I have tried, with no success, to obtain a copy of the bolting policy. Unless I have been asking the wrong people. Therefore in response to Chris’s question, I do not know. Perhaps what is required is for the policy to be made freely available enabling people to judge this fairly.
Until the wording of the current policy has been confirmed then a lot of the other questions and subsequent decisions can not be made. For example Chris’s first question:

1) Are there any crags on Gower which are ‘no bolting’ which should be ‘New spotrs routes allowed’?

Clarification of the policy itself should be made first before people can be asked to make comment on individual crags.

4) Are there any trad crags where old pegs and threads should be replaced by bolts?

No, if it is a trad crag keep it that way. The pegs and threads were likely to have been placed on lead (or possibly absail). There is a clear danger, based on activity elsewhere, that once one bolt appears then more will follow regardless of policy.

5) Are there any trad crags which should be cleared from threads and pegs?

This was dicsussed at the 17th April 2008 bolting discussion and I feel that what was stated and agreed at that meeting should still stand.

3) Are there any trad crags which would benefit from fixed lower offs for climbing or environmental reasons?

Not knowing every single crag on the Gower it is difficult to comment on. This should only be considered once the policy has been determined and agreed to, then crags should considered on an individual basis. If there are clear benefits on environmental or safety reasons to be gained then it should be considered.

6) Is there anywhere where debolting should be considered?

Yes, e.g. Minchin Hole. Climbers should not even be in Minchin Hole, it is a banned venue. I have personnally seen quickdraws hanging from bolts in Minchin Hole. Before anyone asks, I was in a boat offshore. This blatant disregard for the climbing restrictions jeapordises access to other climbing areas on the Gower for everyone. However the removal of bolts does create its own problems.

2) What say should first ascensionists have in the treatment of their routes?

I feel that out of politeness that a decent effort should be made to contact the first ascensionist. However I do appreciate that this is not always possible, for various reasons, and then the opinion of the local climbing community should be considered. This does not mean just asking your mates. It would need discussion in a wider forum to gain a fuller spectrum of views.

There currently seems to be an approach by some members of the climbing community of a ‘bolt first – ask later’. An example of this has been outlined in a previously post, Bowen’s Parlour I believe. There is also a creep of bolting from one crag to the next. Bolting occurs at one crag, and then ‘creeps’ round to the next, even if this was designated as a non-bolting venue.
Not every square inch of rock needs to have a climb. If the rock quality is poor why put up a route? Sport or otherwise. There is the attitude of poor rock = bolts. If there are complaints that some trad routes get few repeats because the rock quality is poor, what difference does putting a few bolts on it make? Is it a case of putting the bolts in to boost individuals’ egos and first ascents totals?

I am not against the use of bolts and the creation of sports venues. I have willing climbed at some of the existing venues and appreciate the time and effort that individuals have committed to make this possible. However, at present there seems to be a minority group that are making their own decisions (bolt anything) without the concensus of the wider climbing commuinty. As a result of this attitude and until the policy is clarified, there should be no further bolting at all on the Gower.

Ian Goudge 27/06/11

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: Ian, regarding Minchin Hole, limited access has been agreed... see http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=963 --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 14:05, 29 June 2011 (BST)

: Apologies all, and thank you Tim for spotting my error. I meant to refer to Bacon Hole and not Minchin Hole. -- Ian Goudge 30/06/11

: Also, I don't believe the excuse of "poor rock" is used to justify placing bolts. It is usually a complete lack of traditional methods of protection that is used to provide justification. In these cases, the rock is often quite sound and is anything but poor quality. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 14:17, 29 June 2011 (BST)

: We have a copy of the General Policy on the website http://www.southwalesmountaineering.org.uk/en/bolting_policy . For more specifics you'd have to ask Mark Winder who attended the meetings. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 14:53, 29 June 2011 (BST)

: Thank you Tim for pointing me the right direction. Can I check that this is the correct version and not the one from the current guide book (if that version does indeed contain errors)? -- Ian Goudge 30/06/11

:: The General Policy (as on the club website and on p. 14 of the current guidebook) is, I believe, quite accurate. When the guidebook came out, I heard, through the grapevine (possibly Steve Lewis), that the NT, who also took part in the meetings, were not happy with some of the individual crags' bolting policies as described in the guidebook. I spoke to Mark Winder about this and he seemed to think that everything was (more or less) ok. If you want a definitive answer regarding how specific crags fit within the current policy, you could contact Wayne Gladwin who chaired the meetings. Gwyn Evans and Mark W. of course could be helpful too. --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 13:26, 30 June 2011 (BST)

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===13===

'''Crag rights and responsibilities'''

Having read the previous posts, I was struck by the assumption that climbers can decide what happens on cliffs and crags.

As far as I am aware, climbers only own a few crags across the UK (e.g., Tremadog). Even then, they do not have soul responsibility for deciding what happens, e.g., Tremadog is assertively managed with wildlife and conservation at the very heart of crag restoration. This can be summed up by the phrase that yes, people may have rights, (e.g., to decide what happens on their property, in this case a crag) but with those rights come responsibilities. The BMC should be complimented on its approach to juggling rights versus responsibilities, and other climbing areas would benefit from taking heed of this.

I am not aware of climbers owning any crags in South Wales, so climbers cannot be the soul decision-makers of what happens on what is not ours! Discussions about crag management (e.g., bolting) needs to happen IN CONJUNCTION WITH other interested parties. For example, when discussing Gower crags, interested parties may include the National Trust and other landowners, the RSPB, CCW (as many areas of Gower are SSSI, including Bowen’s Parlour and other Southgate crags), Archaeology and Geology departments in Swansea and Cardiff Universities, local residents. Having informally spoken to some of these people, they are very, very interested in what happens. Has any efforts been made to formally invite them to the table for discussion?

Secondly, in terms of responsibilities, members of the public (including climbers) are legally bound to honour certain terms and conditions. For example, Bowen’s Parlour is in a bird nesting restriction area for the majority of the spring and summer. If this is case, how come did the original first assecionist dates initially published on the WIKI fall within the dates of the nesting restrictions? I also noted that these were hastely withdrawn when this was pointed out! It was also noted that certain commercial organisations were advertising climbing days at Bowen’s Parlour within the nesting restriction dates (a practice that seems to have recently changed). If climbers wish to maintain the rights to climb at sensitive areas, they also have the responsibility to prove they are responsible climbers! Otherwise a few fool-hardy folk could jeopodise hard-earned rights for the rest of us.

In terms of removal of gear, I would whole-heartedly agree with gear removal from areas where climbing is banned, e.g., several routes that fall outside the agreement for Minchin Hole (removal of temptation!?!) and most definitely the tat, hanging quick-drawers and bolts in Bacon Hole. I also agree with the view expressed several times that sea-cliffs should not be bolted. It would be good to re-visit the bolting policy, so long as ALL interested parties are invited to the table and their views taken on-board before decisions are made. I commend the Cornish climbers’ approach of asking the local community (including other climbers) BEFORE doing anything, and the fact that they have honoured any decisions made. This is a far cry from the (at best) negligent “bolt first, talk later” approach in South Wales.

I would welcome any information about why East of Shirecomb is not considered to be of “wild” character, therefore deemed okay to bolt. Just ask the chuffs, peregrins and rare flora and fauna that make this area their home (and the people who appreciate such things) and I’m sure they’d disagree! If there is factual information that this is NOT considered as a wild area (which seems to go against the area being designated a SSSI!), then people need to own their opinions, otherwise opinions are in danger of becoming “facts” in unreliable institutional memories.

Sara Davies

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'''Can we make clear that:'''
#There is no nesting restriction at [[Bowen's Parlour]].
#There has been neither overt nor surreptitious changes to the first ascents info at BP.
This second point can be confirmed by checking the "View history". --[[User:Tim Hoddy|Tim Hoddy]] 22:56, 2 July 2011 (BST)

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The only" bird nesting restriction" at Bowens and the other tidal southgate zawns are the one imposed by a tide rising twice a day.No sensible bird is going to nest 4m above the high tide level.Sport routes and their use of lower offs also help save clifftop trampling and cut down the wear on access paths.Trad areas like Paddling Pool Buttress and Bucketland are in the Seasonal Bird Restriction Area directly below the chough site and rely on setting up lower off ropes(footpath erosion) or climbing over the delicate clifftop vegetation and bird sites. This of course would only become a problem as their popularity with "adventure seekers"increased.
Roy Thomas

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====================

Bacon Hole - Is Banned, and actions of one person ignoring this was a blow to the relationship we were re-kindling with the National Trust. This site was discussed thoroughly at November meeting (Gower) with climbers and Sian Musgrave of the National Trust in attendance and as such the BMC Regional Access Database has been updated. Minutes of this meeting can be found here; http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=292. This was also emphasised in February’s meeting at Cardiff.

Some equipment has been removed (expansion bolt hangers and in-situ quickdraw) the glue inns remain. After a discussion with Sian Musgrave and Elfyn Jones (BMC Wales Acess and Conservation) due to difficulty of removing equipment and likely damage to rock during the process.

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Involvement of non-climbers /interested partys - Myself and Elfyn have tried our best to involve key people and over the last year or so, meeting with the National Trust wardens four or five times. This includes site visits with them to Minchin Hole with Danny McCarrol professor of Geology at Swansea University, which re-gained limitted access to this venue. For full climbing and historical information please see the topo; http://www.southwalesmountaineering.org.uk/g_book/dloads/minchin_hole.pdf

On a separate visit prior to the November meeting we took a step by step approach of Southgate area in particular, to identify bird nesting areas, areas of importance, and those areas that are sensitive in terms of conservation and the impact of bolting. The outcome of that can be seen in the presentation I put together for that evening and have uploaded to the BMC’s website. File can be found here; http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=373

A Gower National Trust warden will be in attendance on the 23rd July, unfortunately Sian is not available.

To avoid confusion can we remove comments about Bowen’s Parlour being bird banned?

Regards Stuart Llewellyn

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A few thoughts for the debate from one of the active bolters.

1. Sport climbing is a legitimate activity that is very popular and getting ever more popular. It is not the same as trad climbing. Some people do both, but many people only want to climb sport. I accept that sport climbers are a minority, but does that mean that they have no rights? Do they have to accept the will of some ‘majority’ that are not interested in sport climbing? I do not think that is fair.

2. Sport climbing in not worse- or better- than trad climbing, it is just different. Where bolting is done properly the aim is to remove as much of the danger element as possible so that the focus is completely on the climbing. No distractions of placing gear or calculating risk, just the pure joy of moving on rock. Sport climbers can climb to and beyond their physical limits, just having fun and without worrying about injury or death. If some people are more interested in dangerous adventure climbing, with skinny gear on poor rock, then that is fine, good luck to them. They may think sport climbing is for wimps but I don’t mind, I think that attitude is just pious and elitist.

3. Sport climbing should not be relegated to quarries and areas of poor rock. Some people take the view that ‘if you can climb it on trad then you should not place bolts’, but I do not accept that at all. Why should trad climbers be allowed to keep all the good rock, surely sport climbers have a right to have some of it, even if they are a minority group?

4. I have been responsible (with John Bullock) for bolting routes at Watchouse crag, watchhouse east, Fox Hole, Bowens Parlour and Golden Wall. We have not tried to hide our activities, we have nothing to be ashamed of, on the contrary I think we have made a positive contribution to the variety of climbing that is available on Gower. I know that some people think these crags should not have been bolted, so let me explain why we did it.

5. Bolting at Watchhouse was specifically banned in the old policy. I was at the meeting where that was decided and I think it was a complete joke. The room was full of people (supposedly ‘climbers’) who I have never seen before or since, hardly any had even heard of the crag and they just followed the lead of one of the local anti-bolting trad climbers. Watchhouse did have a few old trad lines, with pegs and tat on them, but they were complete and utter rubbish. I doubt they had even had a second ascent. It was described in the old guide as only suitable for the ‘jaded locals’. John and I spent a whole winter cleaning and equipping the crag and Stefan and Sabina kindly supplied nice stainless lower-off rings. It is now described on the Wiki as ‘a little gem’. Go down to Watchouse on a sunny weekend and see for yourself how much fun people are having, especially youngsters and people who are new to climbing.

6. Bowens Parlour was in the old policy as ‘new sport routes allowed’. John and I wanted to do the steep routes near the cave and that involved a lot of work to remove loose blocks from the choss higher up. Having completed the harder routes we debated whether to add a few easy lines lower down. Of course some of those lines could have been climbed using trad gear, or just soloed at high tide, but we decided to bolt them to produce a sport climbing venue with easier lines on very good rock. Having been there many times and watched lots of people having fun on them I am convinced that we made the right decision. If we had claimed them as trad lines (much cheaper for us!) it would be just another of the hundreds of Gower trad venues that rarely get climbed on. Access is difficult, it is very tidal and the top out is a bit grim. A few of the keenest locals might have gone there once but that is all. Instead we have a lovely little sport crag, which gets all of the winter sun, with routes ranging from F5 to 7C. For sport climbers Bowens parlour is a really valuable addition to the range of options on Gower. If you are not interested in sport climbing then just don’t go there. Trad climbers never showed any interest before we went there so there is no need to make a fuss now. If you want to climb trad there are hundreds of Gower crags you can go to, so please leave this one to the sport climbers. The same applies to nearby Golden Wall (topo being produced soon), where there are a few spectacularly good sport routes on perfect tidal rock below a huge wall of choss.

7. What about the environmental implications of bolting? I agree with Roy that the impact of sport climbing is actually far less than that of trad climbing. In particular there is less impact on the cliff-top soils and vegetation, which often includes the rarest plants. I have never knowingly broken a bird ban. Drilling a few 10mm holes in a limestone cliff does not cause any real damage, and if placed properly an expansion bolt can be removed invisibly when it needs to be replaced. Of course there are some sites on Gower that are sensitive because of the geology and archaeology, and we need to be very careful not to do any damage. As a professor of Geography and Geology with a specific interest in the Gower caves and deposits I am quite well placed to consider those issues, and have worked with the BMC and National Trust (e.g. at Minchin Hole) to ensure than climbers have access but do not do any damage. I was not responsible for the recent bolting of Bacon Hole, which I think was very ill-advised and has upset both the National Trust and the local geology warden (though it has not actually damaged the very important deposits in the cave).

8. What next? In this discussion John and I have been criticized for our ‘bolt first and ask later’ attitude and I think that is fair comment. The problem is who should we ask? Do we just call a meeting and ‘ask’ whoever is available to turn up? Sport climbers are in a minority. If someone calls a meeting that is dominated by trad climbers and armchair climbers and there is a vote to remove all bolts on Gower, do we have to accept that decision? If someone else calls a meeting of all Gower residents and interested parties, including bird watchers and NT members, and there is a vote to ban all climbing of any kind on Gower, do we accept that as well? I am not sure where we go next, but I think it is a good thing to have this discussion and to let people air their views openly. I suspect that the views of the keen, active local climbers are actually not too far apart. There will also be views from people who are not keen, active or local, but to be honest those do not interest me.

Happy Climbing
Danny McCarroll

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